11-07-2003 20:54									#1
	What can be done about the gang problem in US? Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I just read AS's thread about an incident in Philly, so I thought I'd make this thread since I can't remember discussing about this, ever.

I've read few books about it, written mostly by former gang members who are now in jail (like Kody Scott etc).

So, what can be done about it? It's like ME.. Do people there really care about it? Young men (and women too) shooting each other with record pace? What should be done?

	11-07-2003 20:57									#2
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If the gangs would limit themselve to shooting each other, eventually the problem will solve itself.

Other than that, load their asses on the boat to Cuba.

	11-07-2003 21:01									#3
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If you had your ways Sloww.. Cuba would be one helluva place to visit

I believe they mainly shoot each other, or at least try to. Some collateral damage happens every now and then..
But to me it seems like no matter how much they kill each other, there will be just more and more gang members and younger and younger. I can't remember the figures, but it was something astronomical about how many there are.

	11-07-2003 21:02									#4
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I often wish someone would shoot me. I can't afford a gun.

Oh, and yesterday was Nikola Tesla's birthday.

	11-07-2003 21:03									#5
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Simple. Reduce the gap between rich and poor rather than increasing it.

	11-07-2003 21:04									#6
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It would be nice if we could take away some of their money making criminal ventures.... like legalizing drugs and undercutting their business. We could pass gun control laws to decrease the likelihood of so-called "law abiding citizens" from funneling legally bought guns to gangs. We could insititute job creating economic policies to decrease unemployment in urban areas. We could give proper funding to inner-city schools and decent pay to teachers to encourage more people to become teachers so that inner-city kids have an opprotunity to live productive, crime-free lives. We could stop wasting law-enforcement resources on unproductive means (such as drugs, safety-nazi-traffic laws, etc) so that cops can patrol and enforce law in urban areas...

there are lots to do... but some politicians don't care.

	11-07-2003 21:04									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH Simple. Reduce the gap between rich and poor rather than increasing it.

I think there would be a revolution if we instituted Finland style tax rates.

	11-07-2003 21:05									#8
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You shouldn't say things like that, st_swithin.
Not the birthday remeberance, the other.

I think I may need to start a thread about something I've been trying to ignore.

	11-07-2003 21:05									#9
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quote: I think there would be a revolution if we instituted Finland style tax rates.

yeah, working class people would rise up and remove the super-rich influence in Washington...

	11-07-2003 21:05									#10
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You can also talk about other countries problems with gangs and violence related to it.

MikeH, But that's impossible. At least in the next 100 years it is.. I don't think US wants to become socialist .

	11-07-2003 21:06									#11
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I know but as long as you have people living in such relative poverty you're going to have them turning to crime as a way out of it.

	11-07-2003 21:07									#12
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Rich people don't commit crimes?

	11-07-2003 21:08									#13
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actually, gangs, as portrayed in movies and what not, are a rarity now... they were very common in the 80's and early 90's when i was growing up but my generation apparently never got into it too much so you'll never see gangs fighting over colours and **** like that. in some predominately white poor neighbourhoods in philly (in south and the northeast) you will see some people behaving like gangsters did ten years ago and they do criminal behaviour but i got a feeling they're more playing gangster than anything else, even if somebody does get killed.

the problem is crews... a drug dealer has a problem with someone, so he gets his friends to roll on whoever he got a problem with... some guy got a problem with another guy over a woman and they get their crews to fight it out... not gangs per se but thats whats most common here and thats what i suspect that incident i referred to in north philly was about... a conflict between individuals escalating into war between their friends.

there's also the matter of young boys playing tough... in all seriousness, most people my age are either drug dealers, drug addicts, in jail, or they're working a job and being good... the people who go around car-jacking, robbing random people, beating up people, toting guns, etc. are almost always 14 year old boys who run the streets, trying to play tough. they're also the ones who usually go around rolling on out of towners and claiming they repping Girard or Hunting Park or Olney or whatever...

	11-07-2003 21:09									#14
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Rich people don't commit as many crimes. They also are a lot less likely to end up selling crack on street corners and shooting each other. I don't think that's a controversial statement.

	11-07-2003 21:10									#15
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Seems like the only way to get away from that violence (if you live there) is to get educated and leave. Are there any real attempts and projects to raise the level of education in problem areas? Encouraging youth to make it themselves and get out.

But I guess that has been tried before and didn't really work out good. Maybe they should invest more money to it? Or how about a good army program, you get pinched with illegal gun, they send you to army. Or any other minor offence.. instead of jail, you have to go to army. For few years.. that could straighten out few souls?

	11-07-2003 21:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MikeH I know but as long as you have people living in such relative poverty you're going to have them turning to crime as a way out of it.

Gang members don't join gangs for the money. It doesn't pay at all. In fact your chances for survival aren't good. Young men join gangs because they want to be part of the group and they really don't give a **** about anything else. The only solution is to give them something to live for, and put cops everywhere. We will probably have to take away some of their rights too.

	11-07-2003 21:16									#17
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Pekka:

recruit inner city youth into a para-military group

nah for real though... i think after school programs and midnight basketball and all that jazz has helped to reduce the preponderence of gangs in philly. when they turn 18 though and leave these programs, that can be a different story, but fortunately, a few of them stay on to play with and tutor the next generation

	11-07-2003 21:18									#18
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AS, so you say the problem has changed its face?
Some money pooring in, some people making it big with drug dealing, and pretty much rest of them faliing behind these guys?

	11-07-2003 21:19									#19
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I haven't noticed any gangs here.

	11-07-2003 21:22									#20
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No, people join gangs so they can kick the tar out of people like me, and have backup just in case I ever decide to try to fight back. That's REALITY - that's what I've been brought up in, it's what I see every day on the streets, it's how working in the industry has been - it's as all-pervasive as an audibly wet fart in a crowded elevator that's stuck between floors.

And it IS true - if I hadn't already messed up so many times to begin with, I wouldn't HAVE to wish someone would shoot me. I'm just a coward.

As my mom once told me, 'You can't even kill yourself right! Now we're gonna have to pay for the hospital bills! I hope you're proud of yourself!'

My inferiority complex is a Moebius strip.

I hate hospitals. I hate having to live in them, because everything smells like ammonia (or pee, same thing). I hate it because no matter how nice you try to be to people, or how much you try to make things better, they just eventually tell you to fvck off, or just shut up.

That's my other area of expertise: shutting the fvck up when I'm told to shut up. I'm just waiting til someone here tells me to shut up so I can stop with my own amateurish attempts at self-therapy. In fact, I don't even respond to the words anymore - you just have to shoot me a look like the way people in Hollywood look at homeless people.

	11-07-2003 21:23									#21
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Oerdin, we don't have them either. Few wannabes, watching too many movies. The kinds that harrased me the other day.. nothing too dangerous.
Except few biker gangs, but they mostly do other stuff than make trouble in public.
And few ethnic minorty gangs, few local gangs and few mixed ethnic gangs that fight each other, most of the times with fists and stuff like that though. So we don't have that problem.

	11-07-2003 21:25									#22
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Pekka:

generally... i think the average young male's life goes something like this... at 12, he starts getting all hormonal and wanting to be tough and **** and tries to imitate what rappers talk about and what not and starts smoking and having sex and his friends start hanging around on the corner... by 14, they start playing gangster, getting a hold of guns, mugging people, beating up people, car-jacking, hollering Hunting Park up in here when they beat up out of towners etc. hell, some of my friends are seriously scared of the young boys in our neighbourhoods just because they're young, stupid, and got weapons and they're hyped enough to use them without thinking... by around 16 or 17 though, these young boys mature... a couple end up in juvenile detention, some 'find christ or allah' and fix themselves up, and most just plain grow out of it... their ties with their friends do remain strong and even if they're not running the street like they used to, if something goes down, it's like they're 14 again, busting rounds, except now, they're old enough and smart enough to cause some serious damage.

in fact with the young boys, three years ago or so, i related how i was attacked by several guys, some of whom had weapons, all over an incident with a girl (it was part of my infamous love life series )... i think that incident back when i was 15 kind of sums up how young boys are here at that age

	11-07-2003 21:30									#23
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So you say it isn't that big of a problem, but more youngs kids acting tough these days? But young kids who have guns and no brains?

Sounds like lack of interest of other things. How about forcing them to school, and then lots of after school activities like sports and what ever they find fun to do, so they don't have too much time to hang out in the corners and all that?

	11-07-2003 21:31									#24
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by the way, i'm waiting for one of apolyton's communists (perhaps chegitz or kidicious) who act like they know everything about poorer people, to claim that i dont know what i'm talking about...

	11-07-2003 21:33									#25
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In chicago this week they're starting to install bulletproof video cameras on top of street lights.
This will get entertaining.

	11-07-2003 21:34									#26
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Speer: While I don't discount your experiences and the way life is in your neighborhood, just keep in mind, that doesn't represent what "poverty" is like across the country.

There, how's that?

	11-07-2003 21:35									#27
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Pekka:

thats the strategy that philly has been using for at least 10 years now and it seems to be working alright... after school programs, basketball, tennis and fencing (i'm not making this up... there are seriously programs where inner city youth play tennis and fencing) etc. nevertheless, you still got boys who fall through the cracks and when summer rolls around, a lot of these programs temporarily shut down or if they're still running (like summer league, inter-mural bball), they don't keep kids occupied everyday of the summer

	11-07-2003 21:37									#28
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Sava:

i know very little about rural poverty and though i'm sure biker gangs are a problem, i don't imagine huge gang problems in the country... maybe Flint Michagin or Gary Indiana got problems though... LA apparently still does. as for the inner city on the east coast... gangs as popularily pictured are dead.

	11-07-2003 21:38									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka So you say it isn't that big of a problem, but more youngs kids acting tough these days? But young kids who have guns and no brains? Sounds like lack of interest of other things. How about forcing them to school, and then lots of after school activities like sports and what ever they find fun to do, so they don't have too much time to hang out in the corners and all that?

Despite what Speer says, these programs have very limited effect. btw, I used to teach in an inner-city school.

	11-07-2003 21:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Oerdin, we don't have them either. Few wannabes, watching too many movies.

Yeah, that's what we have here; wannabes who've watched to many movies. Growing up there were a few small (mostly vietnamese) gangs which harassed there own people and were involved in the drug trade (again mostly to their own people). Back in the early 1990's though the police cracked down hard on these guys and they ended up with very long prision sentences.