12-07-2003 05:16									#1
	House of Lords bill: Declaration of war on ND and approval of an alliance with GoW Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Lords, it is important that we come together now. We have great issues to discuss. In a meeting with the King and his most important advisors.

The King has decided that he wants to declare war on ND with the help of GoW. This war has to take place in 5 turns form now. By that time we will have an allaince with both GoW and Legoland. The reasons for this war are:

1. There will come a time that the continent of Bob will be split into two parts: a northern part and a southern part. Of course it is the goal of Spain to be this southern part. ND is, althou seemingly trustworthy, an obstacle to this goal. ND has to be removed to benefit Spain.
   
2. Legoland is an enormous country and will, if we don't stop it in any way, gain victory by simply staying out of any war. This will cause legoland to grow unlimited, while we stay behind with our swords in our hands that couldn't deny them this building victory. SUCH MAY NOT HAPPEN, MY DEAR LORDS! We have to fight ND to make sure Spain will have the power in the future to keep up in power with Legoland
   
3. The Glory of War is not the most trustworthy nation on Bob, but if we remove them by allying with ND, the continent wil be unequally split. DO WE FIGHT FOR OUR SAFETY TO ONLY HAVE ONE THIRD OF THE CONTINENT?!? NO my dear Lords, WE DESERVE MORE! we are a proud nation that is respected allover the world and treated with the greatest respect. We deserve AT LEAST HALF OF THE CONTINENT!!

Last edited by Aidun on 12-07-2003 at 05:35

	12-07-2003 05:38									#2
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When we have Chivalry and have ratified an agreement with Carthage for her naval support and China for her Riders, I'd be very pleased to lend a hand in such a war. When fighting on both fronts, no one can survive. We'll redraw the geo-political map, God willing.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 05:38									#3
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Lords of Spain.

Yes, this day has finally come.

This is the day that our ancestors spoke of fondly, as we have toiled and planned for for a thousand years or more. We have always had it in our thoughts that one day we would face the Arabs of the north. We have always longed to face them on the field of battle, to come out from underneath our jungle and fight them ... yet fight them in THEIR homes, instead of seeing the fight come here and watching our homes in ruins.

Yes, it has seemed that these norther neighbors have not intruded, not have they been difficult to work with. Glory of War has been difficult to work with at times, but with all of our faith and steadfastness we believe the Warmongers have finally seen reason ... there is only one ally who they can best trust and depend upon. We are that ally. There is no more logical division of this continent that GoW in the north, and Spain in the south. There is no more logical attack than a dual stab from 2 sides at the Arab nation before they can fully arm themselves with Ansar Warriors.

War is costly, and it will involve many Spanish lives. If we do this, we risk the possibility that the Arabs could call in allies. We risk the possibility, no mater how rare, of losing in battle, and we risk the sight of seeing Spainish blood shed.

Worse, this war could move to Spanish lands. Once it is started anything is possible. Even the deaths of us all.

It is my firm belief that this is what Spain wants. Spain requires this conquest. All of our ancient maps show our great lands stretching far up into the valley north of Toledo. This is land that our fathers knew to be ours, but land we have had to give to the Arabs to sustain the peace. But no longer.

We will take the war to them before it can be brought to us. We will remove the eternal threat that has haunted us. We will join with the Warmongers, instead of siding against them. We will conquer the ancient lands of Spain and we will stand tall against all oposition showing the true might and skill that is the Army of Spain!

Pass this resolution, Lords of Spain. Pass it so that we may become a greater nation!

--Togas

	12-07-2003 06:32									#4
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Amen, Your Majesty.

Deus le Vault.

Since my grandfather's time as ambassador to Neu Demogyptica we have known that we could not tolerate their presence on this continent for long. Now the time has come.

This war is unavoidable. If our Spanish-Chinese Alliance does not start it, than they will, and they will come prepared.

We mus' take the waaaar to the enemy!

However, may I also suggest you review my proposal for some sort of agreement with Legoland on the navy?

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 07:05									#5
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Although I plead for declaring war on ND and allying with GoW, we have to be careful GoW is not our friend, they are an enemy and as dangerous as any other enemy. We CAN'T trust GoW.

We have to be careful that the war will not develop this way:

GoW advances quicly with their riders and conquers ND, while we can't march very fast with our infantry. ND concentrates on the southern front because they thing that is the weakest front: RP and ND fight, and GoW conquers. After the war, RP's army is exhausted, GoW's not, ND doesn't exist anymore. GoW sees a weak RP, attacks and becomes the master of Bob.

If we go to war we MUST have knights. I told Togas that when I am away I cannaot vote, but know I will not accept us to go to war without knights.
GOW may want to go to war ASAP, that is only to their advantage: the weaker RP is when it starts the war, the more likely the comeout that I designed above will come true.

We have to take our time with preparing this war, we have to take our time with producing MI, Knights and galleys and only when it fits US, we should start war.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	12-07-2003 07:15									#6
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I agree.

There is absolutely no chance of victory unless we have Knights. If we attack, it can only be with knights at the lead, or we will fail.

The Chinese must be given their due. They are powerful and shrewd, and they know when to take an advantage. Their are our chums when they are down, but when they have an advantage like the one that is coming, they will take that advantage. We are nothing to them but an obstacle in their war for Bob.

We need knights. If we don't have them, we can't make an attack.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 07:29									#7
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Morally, it is much better to ally with pagans that can be converted than slaves of Satan. From a more pragmatic point af view, I agree with the arguments of my fellow lords. I vote YES.

Daniel de la Civ

	12-07-2003 07:30									#8
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My dear King, I believe you have been deceived by the Chinese embassador. Why is this one any different the other scroundels they have sent us over the years?

Did you not hear the statistics calculated in the war thread? Attack Spain is a dangerous thing to do - the odds are in our favour. So what does our enemy do? They get their ally to spin us a tall tale...have us charge our armies out into the open...and get slaughtered by the fast moving Ansars and Riders awaiting us. Mercilous forces who can attack and withdraw like cowards, I'm told. Or perhaps not withdraw, but proceed into Spain with a sudden lack of defenders... oh my dear King - what road are you leading us down?!?

	12-07-2003 07:40									#9
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More to consider...

With the present units that the Arabs and Chinese can put afield, it is the utmost of foolishness for us to assault either of them in their own lands.

The Chinese are dangling Chivalry in front of our noses - why? Because they likely suspect (or know, via city investigations), that we do not have a wealth of horsemen sitting around for Knight upgrades. And even if we did, we likely do not have the time and/or money to upgrade them all before our destruction is brought down upon us.

Spain has all the land we desire. ND and GoW each want more. Let them fight it out. Spain should not get involved. We should defend our borders only.

GoW can be depended on for one thing - lies. That hasn't changed, from my perspective, only the person delivering them has.

	12-07-2003 07:50									#10
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As I said, if we go into this conflict, it can only be when we have been able to build up our Knights. We must demand Chivalry, as many turns as we need to build Knights, and full support of China, with no question as to whom they are supporting.

We must not accept any less.

Unless we act in this manner, we will be defeated and destroyed.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 08:20									#11
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We can not start the attack. This will make Lego feel us as untrustworthy, as, I had thought we told them, ND and GoW were going out on a suicidal megawar binge.

We can get chivalry, etc., but we MUST NOT attack. Let ND get the reputation hit.

	12-07-2003 08:51									#12
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I Voted against war and against alliance.

	12-07-2003 09:02									#13
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I change my vote for the war to against it.

When I posted, I was sure that we were getting Chivalry before hand and enough time for Knights. Now that I've seen the latest evidence, via Senor Mitchell, of Chinese treachery, I'm dead against this war unless they give us what I've outlined above.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 09:38									#14
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The idea here, as I understood it from the chat, is that GoW will strike on their own with a large stack of Riders and get into a bloodbath with ND Ansars.

As this bloodbath is already underway, we will move an enormous stack of pikemen and MI's north and attack Marlowa after ND is already engaged on their north by GoW.

That's why the treaty I was asked to write up does not say that we are specifically obligated to declare war IMMEDIATELY after GoW invades and attacks.

My main concern is that we should ensure that we have an adequate defense on our eastern shores to guard against GS while sending a force of AT LEAST 10 pikes and 10 MI's (I'd be more comfortable with an even larger force) as a stack toward Marlowa and on to the ND capital after an amount of bloodletting between GoW and ND has already taken place.

In this manner, we minimize the potential problems for Spain, ensure GoW runs into the brunt of the bloodletting, and still potentially get something out of the war.

Regardless, WE aren't attack ND until AFTER GoW attacks. So this fear that we've been duped into going after ND alone is rather odd. If GoW doesn't attack ND, we aren't going to attack either.

	12-07-2003 10:19									#15
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We must keep in mind GoW won´t gladly march toward a bloody fight just to give us Nd´s rear with few fights... tehre is teh cahnc e this is a backstab, keep that in mind... there is even a chance teh war is some sort of simulation to get tehm both their GA´s... let us keep our eyes open and our ears clean...

	12-07-2003 16:14									#16
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I always keep my vote untill all others have voted and I always wait with voting until everybody else has speeched too.
I am still convinced that war with ND and spleiiting up the continent in two parts, is the only way to victory for Spain. Even though it is safe for us to keep walking at the hand of Legoland, it is not our way to victory.
Thus I am still in favor of the plan to have war, and in favor of the plan to ally with GoW. My only demand, chivalry and a nice army with knights, is but likely to not be fulfilled. Therefore I vote NO to war and allying. Tell GoW that we are not prepared for it and will not attack until we are. Let them do it alone if they desire so, but not now.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	12-07-2003 17:04									#17
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My yes vote was on the basic assumption that we would get chivalry before we joined the war and that we wouldn't have to join until we were ready.

quote: I am still convinced that war with ND and spleiiting up the continent in two parts, is the only way to victory for Spain. Even though it is safe for us to keep walking at the hand of Legoland, it is not our way to victory. Thus I am still in favor of the plan to have war, and in favor of the plan to ally with GoW. My only demand, chivalry and a nice army with knights, is but likely to not be fulfilled. Therefore I vote NO to war and allying. Tell GoW that we are not prepared for it and will not attack until we are. Let them do it alone if they desire so, but not now.

But the current alliance proposal does not require us to join the war immediately. It essentially gives us a free hand to attack ND if we want, but we can stall awhile if we're not ready or uncertain whether we should.

	12-07-2003 20:02									#18
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Duke Aidun,

We must make it clear that we cannot attack without Chivalry or as many Knights as we need. There is no point in trying to attack without Knights. We'll be crushed before we get started. It would be foolish, a waste of men, and perhaps the end of Spain itself. We cannot allow this to happen.

We must only sign this document if the Chinese gives us what we want. If they don't, then there is no agreement. We will not come into this thing when we haven't got the troops to accomplish a damn thing. This cannot be allowed, and should not be tolerated. If they expect us to enter their war, they had better give us what we want first.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 20:07									#19
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I totally agree with you Lord Toledo, it is indeed foolish to attack with only infantry. If I sent my soldiers into a war, I do that with both cavalry and infantry. The early middle ages are behind us now, we are now in the high middle ages. In these times we fight with knights, not only with footsoldiers.

The fact that I vote against this is a sign to his Majesty and Señor Clemente and Libre, some of his advisors.

Duke Aidun Cian of Zaragoza

	12-07-2003 20:17									#20
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After a good night's sleep, my position has softened.

Read my post here for more information.

While I'm no longer against the GoW alliance (provided it really requires nothing from us), I am still strongly against declaring war on ND, at least until such time that we have Chivalry and enough Knights for an city-capturing force (~8 at least).

	13-07-2003 18:18									#21
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I cannot condone a course of action that will make us the aggressor. We may defend ourselves far into enemy territory and we may support our allies no matter how foul they may be, but I will not be accused of being a warmonger like our barbarous northern neighbours!

	13-07-2003 18:47									#22
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I voted against declaring war against ND and against an alliance with GoW. We can't be the aggressor !

	13-07-2003 21:00									#23
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WAR!!!

I am in favor. Have been since the early days of this game. I feel that my initial plan of attack, way back when, may still have some uses. I will look for a copy, otherwise someone might want to go back 3 months and look in this forum..... nope, don't seem to have a copy any more. I will do a quick search and bump it if I find it.

	13-07-2003 21:02									#24
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Voted war without ally as a formal ally is unnecessay. If we choose to ally than I also have no objections, just need to point out that they are untrustworthy in the exream.

	14-07-2003 04:39									#25
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No war without Chivalry and time to build Knights and GoW alliance. We need the GoW alliance to stop them from backstabbing us during the ND conflict AND provide a second front. Otherwise its Med. Inf+a few knights against Ansars and a civ it its Golden Age at a minimum and if anyone else were to join in against us we would be finished.

Btw, what is GoW doing with those 10 Riders anyways. You don't bring 10 riders away from your homeland like that for defensive reasons. They clearly plan on attacking someone shortly. They must be watched closely. Either they are going to attack us, which if they wont give us Chivalry, be VERY wary of a ND+GoW attack on us. Otherwise they will attack ND from that direction with that stack. I assume the have at least one other stack near their core cities.

	14-07-2003 05:25									#26
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GK, we all _want_ war, but we have to make sure no one thinks we're the aggressors either. That's whut our alliance is for. We know they're untrustworthy. The options are:

1. Ally, and GoW attacks them, and we "have to" attack as because of the pact. Our reputation only gets a slight blemish if any at all and they take the aggressor blame.
2. Ally, and GoW attacks US, and we hire Beta as our official PR manager, problem solved. At the very least, we could tout about on our own how we signed an alliance and were still hit out of the blue. Lego would probably keep quiet about how they were informed of we thought there was a risk; it's better for them if we have the upper hand--that is, with the risk that we told them about with GoW.
3. Do not ally, let GoW conquer ND, lather, rinse, repeat.
4. Do not ally, GoW and ND won't get into a bloodbath, sorry, pal, too much to risk on a lone chance.
5. Do not ally, attack with GoW anyways. Confusion in their team as we turned down an alliance; anger from Lego as we told them GoW is a risk. (I believe that was the lie we told them. After a while all these keep piling up )

I think that's all...btw, there is no option in here for Ally but no Declaration. I think that's whut the majority of the team wants.

	14-07-2003 08:38									#27
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I'm a conscientous objector and would have abstained if this poll wasn't closed.



War may be the way to win, as GK predicts, but it is not war on the other team's terms that does so, IMHO.

GoW seemed to know this very well. Their build-up was well-disguised, and they have, in a sense, forced our hand for fear of their stack-of-doom coming our way. Our offensive and defensive potential, our planning, and our determination is nowhere near what I would expect that the minimum would be to sustain an invasion of this magnitude. I predict attrition as a best-case scenario

As such, I think we missed a paradigm that we may not out-live the reprecussion of. We failed to adequately prepare for the future that has come too soon. Should we survive it, I will applaud the tacticians. Therefore, if we have our collective back to the wall, and no other options present themselves, let's get it on and take as many of those b@stards with us as we can

	14-07-2003 09:31									#28
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Yes, exactly. IF we can't stay alive, we go out with a bang instead of a fizz.

	15-07-2003 01:12									#29
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I must protest the King's recent offer of his daughter to the Chinese for marriage purposes! We must respect the sanctity of marriage, and not turn it into a mere political tool! Perhaps it could help us convert the Chinese, but that is dubious. Even worse, a pagan Chinese could become our King if there are no Spanish heirs!

Daniel de la Civ

	16-07-2003 05:31									#30
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No way out, no way out, no way out, no way out...

(Gastronome Neecap V sits in a corner nipping his finger-nails and chattering wide-eyed... Lord Toledo approaches on his way to the front...)

Come, Gastronome, faithful Squire. You've been a faithful servant since your youth, do not disappoint me now. We've got to fight, and if needs be die, to save our country.

But what if our country cannot be saved, you ask?

What does it matter? If it cannot be saved, it shall be destroyed. If we fight and cannot save it, it is destroyed. If we do not fight and cannot save it, it is destroyed. Let's die together, for though our country dies with us, we will have at least looked at Death unafraid.

What is the life of one man worth? What is the worth of a country? What is the difference between a King and a beggar when times as this arise? One hasn't means but knows that he wants to be protected. One has means to protect himself, but boldly goes forward to his peril.

Who is the wiser? The one who dies in the fight, or the one who avoids the fight? That is a question that even the wisest cannot solve.

Lord Toledo