12-07-2003 12:39									#1
	Debate: Can we work with GoW? Increase the size of your Attachments

The general overwhelming consensus is that GoW cannot be trusted. This is a good starting point for every nation. But GoW, as we all secretly feel, is naturally more "distrustful" than most other nations. Yes?

There is only one thing that we can trust about GoW, we can trust that they will do what is in their best interest.

So, gentlemen, we must deduce what is in their best interest and then match that assumption with what we know about their actions, statements, manipulations, and agreements. If they match, we can be relatively assured that we were right.

GoW wants to grow. GoW can invade anyone, but who is the best possible target for GoW? ND is. Why? ND has GoW's iron, and ND dangles it over GoW's head. The possibility of pulling that iron always exists and so long as it exists, GoW will feel as though they are not free. It is difficult for a proud team like GoW to exist feeling beholden to one team.

ND's land is next to GoW's land. GoW would not have to send a massive sea force to another continent and hope they could hold the land they took. And why take far away corrupt land when you can have land that's less corrupt that your eastern cities.

ND has Ansars. GoW, even with their Riders, must fear the Ansar. ND could choose to attack them, betray them, and hit them when they're down. To keep that from happening GoW can do either of the following things:

1) Attack ND first
2) Become ND's *****es and side with them.

First, assuming GoW becomes ND's *****es and sides with them to attack us, what is the result? GoW is still beholden to ND for iron. GoW gets no useful city sites. And ND grows like the plague and owns so much of Bob that ND can easily destroy the weak GoW at the time of their choosing. While GoW might gain a little cash or maybe capture a luxury, GoW loses so much by watching their neighbor and rival grow, expand, and flourish. GoW's marginal spoils of war are no match for ND's spoils of war. The relationship between the two is unbalanced. GoW remains the *****.

If GoW attacks ND with our help what happens? GoW grows and flourishes, gains their freedom, has their own iron, gains Spices and Gems, gains land, gains power, and perhaps grows into the most powerful nation on Bob. GoW becomes a force to be reckoned with. They become rivals in power to GS and Legoland. They ascend to greatness.

Now, let's say that GoW is up to something else ... getting someone else to invade us, or getting us off balance so they can invade themselves. What does it acomplish?

Ultimately, GoW would want ND and RP weak when they are strong. How to have that happen? Have us go to war with each other? Are they doing that?

I believe they were trying to. I believe they were trying to bait ND to attack us. I believe they were going to then take advantage of the war and attack ND to make gains for themselves, however, I believe their plan did not suceed.

It's possible that ND took us seriously and decided to deal with GoW once and for all. It's possible that they realized that, if left alone, we would just make peace with ND and never go to war. It's possible that they feared that ND was wise to their schemes and was doing the one they they feared the most .... allying with us. Once they began to fear that ND was bringing in help (RP? GS?) they knew they had to act.

By coming to us and agreeing eagerly to an alliance GoW is now unable to pull off their plan of ND vs RP ... they are trading it in for Gow & RP vs ND, partially to save their ass and partially because it's their next best option.

Just think about it. Set aside your notions of who is trustworthy and who is not. NO ONE is trustworthy. Only consider what is best for GoW and believe, as I do, that they will ultimately choose what is in their best interest.

--Togas

	12-07-2003 13:27									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Given that I said the same thing in a bit more rambling, I'd had alcohol earlier this evening, form, I'm in full agreement with your more well-written expression of the idea

If people really want my thoughts on this debate, I've posted them in at least 2 other threads already

	12-07-2003 16:25									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, there remains but the possibility that we win with a Phyrrus-victory (for those who have never heard of it: a victory with which you dig your own grave: for instance, after the war your army is gone, but you have victory, two days later, you are in the chinese prison and the Chinese flag is waving on the palace in Pamplona).

Aidun

	12-07-2003 16:57									#4
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If we convince GoW to wait until we're ready to attack, there should be a relatively low risk of them being able to overrun us after defeating ND. Diplomatically, it will be extremely important to make sure we are not seen as super-agressors or as untrustworthy as GoW. We must win the propoganda war as well.

	12-07-2003 19:57									#5
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The only way we should enter this is on our terms, not theirs.

We must have Chivalry, as much time to build as many Knights as we need for an attack, and their total support in this war for our cause.

Anything less is folly.

Lord Toledo

	12-07-2003 20:21									#6
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After a good night's sleep, my position has softened.

Read my posts here and here for more information.

	18-07-2003 16:12									#7
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The last time I was here I noticed everyone seemed to be targetting ND. I never understood why, when GoW was by far the more random threat. In my chats with ND it seemed as if there was unjustified fear on both sides. I tried to convey this in my posts here.

Now I see from the above posts rather tellingly that there were two sets of circumstances mentioned. Us vs ND and GoW, and Us and GoW vs ND. Althought examining these further is academic now, how did things get this bad between us and ND? Why was (and still is) everyone so biased against them?

I just don't understand.

	18-07-2003 17:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt The last time I was here I noticed everyone seemed to be targetting ND. I never understood why, when GoW was by far the more random threat. In my chats with ND it seemed as if there was unjustified fear on both sides. I tried to convey this in my posts here. Now I see from the above posts rather tellingly that there were two sets of circumstances mentioned. Us vs ND and GoW, and Us and GoW vs ND. Althought examining these further is academic now, how did things get this bad between us and ND? Why was (and still is) everyone so biased against them? I just don't understand.

ND has lusted after Cow Valley since the very day we settled it. The only thing that has EVER prevented Neu Demogyptica from attacking Spain to steal Cow Valley since the Lux War is that Spain had equal military strength and there was a certainty that GoW would attack ND from behind if ND ever dared to strike at Spain.

What changed was that GoW got desperate. GoW realized they were slowly losing the game. Their only route out was to go to war with someone, anyone. It was our aim that that someone would be Neu Demogyptica rather than us. At the very least, if we could cause a war between ND with their Ansar Warriors and GoW with their Riders, things would be far better than this unfortunate situation.

Neu Demogyptica, in their lust for Cow Valley, seems to have actively recruited Glory of War to aid them, a team who stands to lose the game if they don't fight a war. They have likely paid Glory of War quite well for their services. Make no mistake... Neu Demogyptica is not an innocent party, here.

For Glory of War's part, there is no question nor was there ever a question that they were duplicitous. However, perhaps the incorrect assumption was made in believing that they were INTELLIGENTLY duplicitous rather than irrationally spiteful. We continue to believe that Glory of War will eventually backstab Neu Demogyptica and no matter how many times we warn ND that this is GoW certain plan (there is no other LOGICAL reasoning for their actions), ND continues to press on and open up their backside to just such a backstab... their lust for Cow Valley is that great. Glory of War, largely to ensure that Neu Demogyptica continues in their quest to steal Cow Valley and commit their forces, has moved forward. However, Glory of War has not yet attacked, we believe because they will only attack in minor ways to conserve their force before backstabbing ND.

No matter how many times we have warned ND of this, no matter how apparent it is to everyone else but ND, ND continues to press on. We have seen this coming for some time.

Neu Demogyptica is like the dog who once he has his teeth upon the prize, will not give it up the struggle to tear it away even for his own life and limb. ND wants our land for them, this is non-negotiatiable. That this may spell their doom is quite possible. We certainly have warned them of this countless times.

However, there is an element of this which is worrying... perhaps Glory of War, in their desperation at realizing they will likely lose the game, decided that a war of spite against Spain meant more to them than even a war of self-interest against Neu Demogyptica. If so, that would have removed the primary reason why ND would NOT attack us (fear of GoW attack from behind) and provided ND with INCENTIVE to attack us (GoW support).

Regardless of the truth, ND is committed to stealing our land and is unwilling to be swayed away from that goal. In their single-minded focus, they have thrown nearly their ENTIRE military into the endeavor, making any attack or backstab on their rear quite tempting in the extreme.

So, the simple answer to your question is that the reason for bad RP-ND relations is a simple one determined by Civ3, not the relationship between the teams. Spain has phenominal lands which are home to a lion's share of the world's luxuries and other riches. Neu Demogyptica, being out of land to settle of their own, needs to expand. We are the primary target because of the riches our land possesses. No ammount of diplomacy has been successful to dissuade them, only using Glory of War as a balancer... when Glory of War as the balance disapeared, the last check against an ND invasion was removed. It's really that simple.

And now that I've said the same thing at least twice, It think I'm tired enough to go to bed

	18-07-2003 18:47									#9
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The answer, I think, is even more simply where the Chinese and the Arabs are concerned.

China has been bought out. This is a mercenary raid. Arabia is obviously offering them something of great value in return for a raiding party to inflict as much damage on us as they possibly can. The Arabs are softening us up with these mercenary attacks.

Lord Toledo