20-07-2003 13:52									#31
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It is also a nod to the RP'ers of RP, that we do not want to squash what they are 'playing' for. Be free, have fun, so long as GS wins.

	20-07-2003 15:07									#32
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I'll contact Lego tonight, will think about what to say. The idea is right though, let's see if they fall for it.

The only problem I see is banking: I don't think we'll be researching for a while. Maybe we should ask for an extension of the ETA.

DeepO

	20-07-2003 15:28									#33
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Could do that, DeepO. It would help with the upgrades.

I would suggest against any mention of RP before our next turn though. No one sees any hint of the alliance prior to our turn. Time enough then to contact Lego and explain things.

	20-07-2003 15:33									#34
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither re the Pope, our pledge to protect him is not a statement of our converting. It is a statement that GS is a religiously tolerant society and that we can well see our responsiblity to protect an institution important to so many people. Besides, Frater Ralphus is about the receive a Cardinal's hat. They are growing among us.

Well, our deal to seek a consensus in important things, and we decide, if none can be reached, is basically a dictatorship of us over them in important things. Why not let them dominate in meaningless things like religion? If roleplaying is all they want, I will gladly be Cardinal Ralphus.

	20-07-2003 17:44									#35
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When we speak to GoW about our invasion, let's offer them to extend the NDA even further so that they'll be more prone to cooperate. I know, we'll be shutting off the option of attacking GoW shortly after ND is removed, but if it makes our war with ND much easier than I say we go for it.

	21-07-2003 02:08									#36
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nye, you're right on not contacting Lego before we get our turn... I'll play dead for a while

actually, I forgot that RP is first in line, was thinking that we follow them in turn-order.

extention of NAP (NDA?) to GoW: let's not overdo it. If things go well, 30 turns would be about right for us to take all of ND, after that it would be best if our armies could push forwards before Lego can intervene. Once ND and GoW are gone, we would be a lot safer.

Re: converting: please nothing public! We might say something about exchanging bishops, but if RP starts to seriously roleplay on the public forum, Lego will know what is going on, and react. And their the ones to watch: if they would enter their GA now, they would produce more then us. 3 civs in their GA would be too much to attack for us, certainly seeing the state of RP's military

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:21									#37
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Suggestions from RP on public position re cities changing hands.

*Arnelos* cover story on the gifting of cities to GS: we'd rather just voluntarily give them to GS than see them used as ND bases in the war. We have no idea whether GS will give them BACK at the end of the war, though...
*Arnelos* hopefully this will prompt taunting on the part of those like GhengisFarb rather than more serious worries on the part of others
*Arnelos* I'm open to better cover stories, though
*Arnelos* the plot may thicken when RP Team "invades" GS, "declares war", and captures a city.

	21-07-2003 06:32									#38
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one second...

next turn, RP will declare war, take Inchon, take the cats, and gift everything back including a peace treaty, right? Then Lego plays, then we play. So the only ones seeing the exchange are Lego, and for the moment, they can probably be asked to keep quiet for at least a turn.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:35									#39
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I need to inform Arnelos and Togas that there were talks with ND and GoW where we would join in. ND and GoW wanted us to help kill RP in exchange for 'future considerations' and resisted all requests by us for permanent settlements. That put the kibosh to the idea from our POV, even if we would have decided to participate in a 3 on 1 dog pile, which many of found distasteful in principle.

When RP approached us, and was willing to be reasonable about territory and the East coast ports, we were delighted, and rapidly agreed among ourselves that this is a much better arrangement for us, and the game. It will still be a game, rather than a slaughter.

Opinions?

	21-07-2003 06:37									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO one second... next turn, RP will declare war, take Inchon, take the cats, and gift everything back including a peace treaty, right? Then Lego plays, then we play. So the only ones seeing the exchange are Lego, and for the moment, they can probably be asked to keep quiet for at least a turn. DeepO

Don't forget about Vox.

I think we should just hope they don't notice, it would take too much to pay both of them off, I would think. Though we could try. Hmm.

	21-07-2003 06:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I need to inform Arnelos and Togas that there were talks with ND and GoW where we would join in. ND and GoW wanted us to help kill RP in exchange for 'future considerations' and resisted all requests by us for permanent settlements. That put the kibosh to the idea from our POV, even if we would have decided to participate in a 3 on 1 dog pile, which many of found distasteful in principle. When RP approached us, and was willing to be reasonable about territory and the East coast ports, we were delighted, and rapidly agreed among ourselves that this is a much better arrangement for us, and the game. It will still be a game, rather than a slaughter. Opinions?

Its best IMHO, to be upfront about this. That way the blows will be softened on the main forum. I think as long as it is spun that they approached us first and we just listened, we'll be ok. Its not like we were actively seeking out a war.

	21-07-2003 06:42									#42
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yeah nye, be open with them. Just not too open

Is Vox between RP and us? Hmmm... but again, they are still in our debt. Not sure if they'd notice, but still, it may be best to ask them too.

I wouldn't pay gold for it, Lego could most likely be pursuaded without pay. Remember they're also helping RP (they send 150 gold), they want Bob to stabilize (yeah, right )

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:49									#43
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Sounds pretty good NYE.

I'd put in that it was GoW that approached us, asking us for assistance against RP. Play up the 3v1 wass distasteful to many, and their offer was insulting to say the least (which it was).

The second paragraph was perfect IMO.

	21-07-2003 06:51									#44
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well, maybe not perfect. Take out the "for us, and the game." And change "It will still be a game, rather than a slaughter." to something like "The notion of a fair fight between two alliances was much more agreeable than the dogpile GoW and ND were requesting we enter.

EDIT: pardon my postings today, I'm feeling a bit divided on everything

	21-07-2003 06:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO yeah nye, be open with them. Just not too open Is Vox between RP and us? Hmmm... but again, they are still in our debt. Not sure if they'd notice, but still, it may be best to ask them too. I wouldn't pay gold for it, Lego could most likely be pursuaded without pay. Remember they're also helping RP (they send 150 gold), they want Bob to stabilize (yeah, right ) DeepO

Yeah.

Lego-as long as we play up a peacekeeper type role, not as too agressive, maybe they'll keep quiet. I doubt it. Someone will leak it.

Vox: they play their turns so fast they might not even notice. And since they aren't bothered with the affairs of this half of the world, who knows. who knows.

	21-07-2003 07:01									#46
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Well, Lego will not want to see an ND enlarged with all of the south. It will be in their interests to not hurt RP until they begin to realise just how far reaching that treaty may be. At the moment, they won't even know that there is a treaty, let alone its terms. We must guard that secret very closely.

Thinking of things we can say to other civs this next turn that may conceal the level of our commitment to RP...

GoW: RP has granted us Bilbao because it is lost to them. We appreciated them giving up that site to us. Santiago was a price we had to pay for Bilbao. We guess they are very annoyed with ND. [Should we plant suggestions that RP is hoping that a different situation in the East might make GoW reconsider their plans?]

The others? I'm not sure yet. Ideas?

What if we let on that RP sold the cities to us for undisclosed considerations? We are wondering if ND or GoW, or both of them are willing to respect our new borders? We are sure of GoW, due to our friendship and NAP. We are curious about ND.

	21-07-2003 07:26									#47
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I think the first thing we need to decide is what will be ideal for us: GoW attacking us, or not? That should determine how strong we're going to be to GoW in our wording. We can provoke them for sure, but do we want to? Mentioning to them we don't have a RoP is tricky in itself, they might decide that it won't hurt if they bypassed us anyway.

ND can be rather cold, we want them to attack us (I don't see them not doing it anyway).

We shouldn't forget about Vox though. I would start to contact them again (the ending of Voxodus gives the perfect excuse), asking about how strong they still feel about been bullied off Bob. But, it would be very good if we before that time ask more info from RP, to know who their main allies were. If it was RP, that changes the situation considerably: they would probably go along as long as we don't show our real intentions. If they feel closer to GoW, we shouldn't tell too much. But let them feel we still consider them somewhat of our friends, even after they have gone. If we let them rot on Legos minor, we might regret it later

DeepO

	21-07-2003 07:33									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO I think the first thing we need to decide is what will be ideal for us: GoW attacking us, or not? That should determine how strong we're going to be to GoW in our wording. We can provoke them for sure, but do we want to? Mentioning to them we don't have a RoP is tricky in itself, they might decide that it won't hurt if they bypassed us anyway.

IMHO, its best if they didn't attack us and pulled back, went through the jungles, or went to attack ND.

quote: Originally posted by DeepO We shouldn't forget about Vox though. I would start to contact them again (the ending of Voxodus gives the perfect excuse), asking about how strong they still feel about been bullied off Bob. But, it would be very good if we before that time ask more info from RP, to know who their main allies were. If it was RP, that changes the situation considerably: they would probably go along as long as we don't show our real intentions. If they feel closer to GoW, we shouldn't tell too much. But let them feel we still consider them somewhat of our friends, even after they have gone. If we let them rot on Legos minor, we might regret it later DeepO

One thing to keep in mind is the accusation that RP abandoned Vox. who knows if that is true, but if it is, or if they feel used by RP, then things will be different. Good point about their bob adventures.

	21-07-2003 16:39									#49
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okay, I'm contacting Vondrack to ask for a chat. I'll try to follow the plan outlined here:
- We're helping RP the best we can, i.e. military
- we're passive: we get a few cities, and see who will attack us
- we're still commited to research
- we'd want to know how Lego sees all of this, and if they will keep on supporting us-RP
- if possible, we'd like to know the feelings of Vox
- ask for more information, and give some as well (e.g. RP is in a sore military situation, and will most likely fall quickly)

DeepO

	21-07-2003 17:07									#50
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chat is starting. for those interested: #blabla , pwd is #boemboem

DeepO

	21-07-2003 19:18									#51
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither To ND: Too bad, so sad. We tried to talk with you. We tried to get you to see that our concerns re Bob were legitimate. Our concerns were ignored. We are pledged to defend RP lands vs your aggression. We understand if that means war between us. Let us not hate, let us fight if we must, and then share a drink in Valhalla.

While I'd like to send them something the sort of this (good-mannered, very sportive, I like your style NYE ), it may be too revealing... I'd rather leave them in the dark for as long as possible. We don't have to tell them outright that we're committed to serious fighting, for a while they might think that we're just trying to pull some small-time tricks with switching of towns and so on.
We have to say something though. Any ideas?

	21-07-2003 19:27									#52
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Shiber, mabe best to start working on a proposal for a PM, so we can work from there. I would keep the message of nye, although not that strongly, perhaps... ND didn't want us to keep what we could have easily gotten, others did not object. If that means war, too bad... we don't wish for it, but will fight one without hard feelings.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 19:48									#53
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quote: To ambassador Borc and the people of Neu Demogyptica, Due to recent events, Gathering Storm has had to make some very difficult decisions lately. We are sad to have come to this, but we are afraid that cooperation in the matter of your war against RP between our two fine nations does not seem possible. We believe that our minimal claims for strategic land on Bob were legitimate, but since our concerns were ignored by your representatives, we have decided to switch sides in this conflict. We are informing you of this change ahead of the time that you will receive the save in the spirit of good manners and sportsmanship. When you take a look at the save, you will notice that the city of Santiago has changed ownership, and its gates now sport Gathering Storm banners. We have promised some limited help to RP in their struggle for survival, and there is yet more to come. We understand that these new steps may mean that a state of war between our two nations will become inevitable, and we are ready to face the consequences. But please, let us not allow any in-game wars to cloud our personal relations. Let us not hate, let us fight if we must, and share a drink in Valhalla, together. Best regards, Shiber, GS ambassador to ND.

	21-07-2003 19:56									#54
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good, apart from "and there is yet more to come". That would be a full declaration of war... instead I would say something like "We hope you will respect our sovereinity(sp?)"

DeepO

	21-07-2003 19:59									#55
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Well, we don't really want, that they leave us alone, now do we? This is THE chance to win this damn game, and we won't leave it out.

	21-07-2003 20:01									#56
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I was rather hoping that they'd fear an amphibious attack on their own shores when they read and analyze this part, and divert some troops.

	21-07-2003 20:05									#57
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what about asking to stay out of our cultural borders then? It's basically the same as asking not too attack us, but not too agressively.

There are two reasons why I ask for this:
- this message will go straight to GoW. certainly if it will be send first. And I wouldn't mind if GoW attacks us as well, but if we can stall them for another 2-3 turns, we would be in better shape
- both Vigo and Pamplona are ill defended for the moment. If ND does not take Santiago this turn, they will lose another turn of movement before attacking Pamplona, which can then be properly defended before they get there.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 21:43									#58
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erhm, guys, we need to hurry a bit on sending messages to ND and GoW. ND already has the save for a few hours now... every message will be better then no message at all

DeepO

	21-07-2003 22:04									#59
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When Poly went down shortly after Nathan sent the turn, I PM'd Arrian via MZO saying that I have to go out and asked him to PM the message to ND, along with an apology that it didn't arrive before the save did, as soon as Poly goes back up. And he has.

	21-07-2003 23:24									#60
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ah ok. For me, poly only went down for 15 minutes or so, after that it wasn't easy but I could still get it.

How and who is going to handle the GoW contact?

DeepO