14-07-2003 00:06									#1
	Mecha vs. Tanks. Support Apolyton

The big "Heavy weapons" of most sci-fiverse are Mechs. Modern Heavy Calvery are Main Battle tanks, such as the Abrams and T-80U Black Eagle.

What's the future of war? Are Mecha just a fanboy masturbation fantasy(yes)? What do you think?

	14-07-2003 00:12									#2
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Do you mean those robots with arms and legs? That's not in any way based on reality.

There's of cource quite possible that the day of the MBT is comming to an end with more and better AT weapons that can destroy them with ease.

	14-07-2003 00:16									#3
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Mecha? Are you talking about the giant manga-style robots with people inside a cockpit in the head? What's the point of those? As long as you're expending energy to move, get a fleet of helicopters. Jeez.
If so, it's definitely a fantasy. Like the prominent bridges on the Star Destroyers from Star Wars. It's like the designer wanted a big sign that said, "to completely cripple ship and assassinate multiple flag officers, shoot here." Why the hell did the bridge need to stick out a third of a mile over the rest of the ship? Did they think they needed increased visibility or what?
Anyway, I voted banana because I wasn't sure if the big humanoid clunkers were what you referred to.

	14-07-2003 00:17									#4
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I can´t imagine Mechs replacing MBTs, that seems pure scifi. Why shouls one build giant walkers that make also giant targets when we prefer driving vehicles for every purpose?

I only can think of mechanic exo-skeletons (-sp?) for infantry, but even that is future stuff.

	14-07-2003 00:24									#5
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* Lonestar created this thread mostly to poke at DD

	14-07-2003 00:25									#6
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mechs have too high of a profile. They can be hit miles away by vehicles with a much lower profile.

Plus legs are a vulnerable point.

	14-07-2003 00:25									#7
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	14-07-2003 01:09									#8
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IMHO in fiction mecha work only with the "strange enemy can only be defeated with mecha piloted by person X or working with miracle technology Y" plot device, in reality they are much too inefficient compared to MBTs. The control interface alone would be a ***** to say the least, you'd need a VR sort of suit or system that still doesn't have lethal amounts of lag. Pedals and joysticks would be a possiblity but not intuitive enough: you'd need way too much training to make it work fluidly. And you'd need a pretty impressive servo to make the limbs move nimbly enough to not make it a lumbering piece of junk.

Then there're the maintenance and logistics problems. More moving parts means more wear and tear and more possible occurrences of malfunctions. And you need to transport more spare parts, and the technology might be so advanced you'd need much more training for the repair staff. And on troublesome terrain a mecha will probably just trip over.

Then again, mecha, if they ever show up, would not be used for the same role MBTs are used. I doubt they'd form the core of a fighting force, though I can't think of anything unmanned recon planes or just infantry couldn't do better with less complication.

They're still cool though

quote: Why the hell did the bridge need to stick out a third of a mile over the rest of the ship? Did they think they needed increased visibility or what?

Aye, if they must insist on putting the entire command staff in one small location, at least put it deep inside the ship so that less important things can act as sacrificial armour.

Edit: Took me 1½ hours to notice I'd typed "IHMO" instead of "IMHO". Eek.

	14-07-2003 01:13									#9
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MBTs for now...but probably a third (non-Mecha) alternative will pop up in the long term...

	14-07-2003 01:14									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia They're still cool though

Damn straight!

	14-07-2003 01:15									#11
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I only can think of mechanic exo-skeletons (-sp?) for infantry, but even that is future stuff.

I actually saw somewhere on the net a picture of a Japanese-built (surprise surprise) exoskeleton of sorts that was worn by a person. Pictures even. It was very clunky but the news story claimed that it allowed the person to lift twice as much as he could without it. Might be of use for construction workers. Of course, with the same price you could probably hire a few bulldozers and an army of workers to lift and move things.

	14-07-2003 01:22									#12
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That's different from a Mecha. Exo-skeletons are part of the whole uberinfantry thing.

	14-07-2003 01:57									#13
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I think large Mecha's would be impractical...

but rather, I think bio-technology will eventually give way to a change in modern infantry tactics...

but in the short-term/near-future... I see remote controlled unmanned vehicles becoming more common. As the technology gets smarter, I think it will get smaller and more utilitarian. I suspect that there will be more recon and patrol UV (unmanned vehicles) in future conflicts. I doubt AI will be created any-time soon. Intelligence, as we know it, requires a brain that can function like a living brain. I don't see existing computer hardware being capable of such intelligence. I don't buy the whole "machines taking over" stories in sci-fi. I think there will be humans contolling those machines.

	14-07-2003 02:17									#14
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They are completely impractical. They're slower than wheeled vehicles, have a downright stupid surface area, are crammed with unnecessary moving parts and cannot be stored efficiently.

The age of the tank has only just begun.

	14-07-2003 02:20									#15
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eventually we will move towards unmanned tanks. although there will be a need for manned tanks for a while yet. Perhaps 3/4 could be unmanned, and the other 1/4 will be manned. But that would have to await better automated features. As of yet there is no good way to reload the main gun automatically. If it jams there would be no one to unjam it.

	14-07-2003 02:20									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I think large Mecha's would be impractical... but rather, I think bio-technology will eventually give way to a change in modern infantry tactics... but in the short-term/near-future... I see remote controlled unmanned vehicles becoming more common. As the technology gets smarter, I think it will get smaller and more utilitarian. I suspect that there will be more recon and patrol UV (unmanned vehicles) in future conflicts. I doubt AI will be created any-time soon. Intelligence, as we know it, requires a brain that can function like a living brain. I don't see existing computer hardware being capable of such intelligence. I don't buy the whole "machines taking over" stories in sci-fi. I think there will be humans contolling those machines.

There was an article in Discover magazine a few months ago about a guy who was trying to build computers based on the brain. They ended up being something like 200 (literally) times as energy-efficient as normal computers, which means you need less cooling, etc.

	14-07-2003 02:24									#17
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quote: There was an article in Discover magazine a few months ago about a guy who was trying to build computers based on the brain. They ended up being something like 200 (literally) times as energy-efficient as normal computers, which means you need less cooling, etc.

I heard about that. The problem with attempting that is the materials and mechanics used. The human brain is part of a living organism... it is bio-matter. Trying to duplicate the mechanics of a living organism using silicon, copper, etc; is quite a task.

I think bio-tech and information-tech should work together to create a living computer. AI (similar to human intelligence) cannot be created using conventional computer technology.

	14-07-2003 02:24									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Damn straight!

Of course, even in the tabletop game centering on mechs that we both know about, combined infantry and armor can beat the living tar out of a mech force.

	14-07-2003 02:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I heard about that. The problem with attempting that is the materials and mechanics used. The human brain is part of a living organism... it is bio-matter. Trying to duplicate the mechanics of a living organism using silicon, copper, etc; is quite a task. I think bio-tech and information-tech should work together to create a living computer. AI (similar to human intelligence) cannot be created using conventional computer technology.

It'll probably be done using either nano-machines or bio-engineered cells.

	14-07-2003 02:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk Of course, even in the tabletop game centering on mechs that we both know about, combined infantry and armor can beat the living tar out of a mech force.

I hate artillery as well. It kicks the living crap out of me when I play against MW armies with my clix teams.

	14-07-2003 02:31									#21
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quote: It'll probably be done using either nano-machines or bio-engineered cells.

	14-07-2003 02:44									#22
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Mechs just don't seem to be right for the battlefield, so it's probably more likely that they'll be used in a civil capacity, for construction purposes (Patlabor is a good example of this, and for an anime is fairly well grounded in reality).

	14-07-2003 03:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I can´t imagine Mechs replacing MBTs, that seems pure scifi. Why shouls one build giant walkers that make also giant targets when we prefer driving vehicles for every purpose? I only can think of mechanic exo-skeletons (-sp?) for infantry, but even that is future stuff.

Nonsense. Observe the little boilers on their backs. This is some time around 1851

	14-07-2003 04:08									#24
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Vetlegion - what movie/series is that from?

	14-07-2003 04:13									#25
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What, you don't read japanese?
I think it is a poster for Steamboy, anime that is not finished yet.

	14-07-2003 06:24									#26
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hi ,

it all depends on the battlefield or area of ops itself , .....

but mechs shall take a place , they shall fill a gap thats needed , .....

have a nice one

	14-07-2003 07:12									#27
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Mecha! (but not 50 feet tall, or lie some gundam piece of crap).

	14-07-2003 07:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Mecha! (but not 50 feet tall, or lie some gundam piece of crap).

hi ,

more something like the C&C gdi little ones with machine guns , ......

have a nice day

	14-07-2003 07:37									#29
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	14-07-2003 07:39									#30
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I can only think of Mech that are squat, heavy set, low to the ground, asnd probably multiple crew. s for theior legs being a weak spot so are the threads on a tank, all vehicles have weak spots.

As for weapons, you could try to fit the sort of heavy gun they have in the nose of the A-10, and then in the other "arm", missile tubes for hellfires or TOW (or something of the like), or just rockets.