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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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alright, Ming... i'll re-state what i was saying...
it is a fact that the US military is extremely disproportionately lower middle class and also very disproportionately hispanic and black... it don't seem right to me for american wars to be fought by the poor and semi-poor when the more wealthy can just sit back with no fear of serving their country...
so conscription is only fair.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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it also should be noted how Switzerland has mandatory, peace-time conscription and the Swiss have not been in a war since the 16th century. having conscription may be the road to peace
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:29
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Do I have the moral authority to force you to risk your life for my security? That is what conscription is all about, not "implied" contracts fabricated by other people when it suits them.
Boris - quote:
Hypothetically, I can justify it. Say a powerful Fascist country, akin to Nazi Germany, was poised to invade your country. The only way to repel the invasion would be to institute a draft. If this country invades successfully, it is a given they will commit horrible atrocities, including genocide and slavery. |
The American Revolution was fought and won by volunteers against the mightiest nation on Earth. Now, a draft may be the utilitarian response to such a scenario, but that doesn't make it moral to force others to die for you.
David - We have a judicial system that makes mistakes by jailing, even executing, people who are innocent. While that is immoral, we, and you, have no better alternative, so what do we do? While I believe conscription is immoral, and that a nation that needs conscription isn't worth saving since the people aren't willing to fight of their own accord, there are, as Thomas Paine said, certain "necessary evils".
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
The American Revolution was fought and won by volunteers against the mightiest nation on Earth. Now, a draft may be the utilitarian response to such a scenario, but that doesn't make it moral to force others to die for you.
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Not even remotely analogous to the scenario I posited. First, the British weren't really "outside" invaders, hence the term "revolution." Second, a large portion of the colonists remained loyal to the crown, so instituting a draft to fight their troops would have provoked full-scale revolt against the colonial leaders. Third, the victory of the British would not have been a dire situation for most of the colonists, as it would simply maintain the status quo. Nor were the British engaging in wholesale genocide against the population.
The fact is, in a real world, a draft might indeed be necessary as a lesser of two evils. There are plenty of cowards and lazy schmucks who would probably be content to sit out a war, even if they knew their country losing would be terrible, because that's how human beings can be. Shortsightedness of individuals shouldn't lead to longterm disaster for a society.
The beauty of the representative democracy is that the government IS the people and speaks with the voice and authority OF the people. So conscription is, in fact, a democratically-chosen path. As was said, it's part of the "neighborhood dues," along with taxes. You want to partake in all the great things America has to offer? Fine, but you've got to also do your part when called upon.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Sava,
quote:
Then devise a plan to effectively test maturity for millions of people and sell it to the government. Until then, age is the best way of limiting inexperienced youth from operating heavy machinery, purchasing liquor, and entering legal contracts. |
As to purchasing alcohol and drugs, the government shouldn't be involved at all. It should be a parental decision, and if parents decide to let their kids walk around with enough money and enough lack of supervision to buy beer, then the parents obviously don't care. If they did care, they would make an effort to stop it. But it isn't the government's problem.
As to driving ages, this shouldn't be a governmental problem either, as roads should be privately funded.
Legal contracts are a simple matter. If there is a dispute, a court simply decides competency on a case by case basis, same as they would do for, say, a mental patient. If someone is competent to enter into a contract, ie, they know what they are doing and have a capability to grasp the ramifications, then they can enter into it, and if not, then not.
quote:
btw, Floyd, aren't you against welfare because you don't want your money going to people who didn't earn it? I'm sure veterans might feel the same about you. You are enjoying the freedoms you didn't earn, and others died for. |
What conscripts do you think died defending my freedom? I'll tell you how many - ZERO. Any war in which we have used conscription had precisely nothing to do with protecting the US from invasion, except for the US Civil War, but the CSA wasn't interested in conquering the US or violating the rights of US citizens, only in ending a war the US started.
Further, if the Founders thought I had to do something to earn my freedom, why don't they say so in the Constitution? And don't tell me that it's implied - that's clearly preposterous.
Imran,
quote:
It is neither. It's simply your social duty... which is not immoral, nor slavery. |
Who says military service is my "social duty"? And if this is true, then why don't we deport COs?
quote:
If you have a duty to do something, it cannot be slavery, |
You could say that slaves prior to the 13th Amendment had a legal duty to obey their masters. Does this mean it wasn't slavery?
quote:
and since it is for society's benefit, it cannot be immoral |
So if society can derive and justify some benefit from my death, murdering me isn't immoral?
Ming,
quote:
Without conscription in WWII, you might be speaking german now, and have none of the rights you so sadly think came to you for free. |
Ming, that statement is preposterous. Not only did Germany have no intention or wish to go to war with, much less invade, the US, but they didn't have the capability, nor could they possibly have had the capability in any forseeable amount of time.
quote:
It is not slavery... it's a contract between you and your country. One that comes with citizenship. If the country requires it... then you must agree because that's part of the deal. That is by no means slavery. |
Really? So, again, why don't we deport COs?
quote:
You have the choice to say no... renounce your citizenship... or suffer the penality by going to jail. |
So, then, the government has the moral right to tell me to do anything it wants - say, wear a pink tutu - and if I don't like it, I can either go to jail or get out. Is this your position?
quote:
Whose to say whether it's necessary or not. Having a standing army available might be considered necessary by some people. |
The definition of necessary and the definition of desirable (to certain people) are by no means the same.
quote:
Frankly... I think all young men and women should have a mandatory 1 or 2 year service to their country... whether it's in the military or communty service... It would teach them that freedom doesn't come for free, |
That isn't what the Founders of the country thought.
quote:
and that EVERYBODY needs to do their share. |
If the US faces a dire threat to national survival, I would probably volunteer, provided that the US was behaving morally. If the US isn't behaving morally, or there is no threat to national survival, why would I want to prop up a regime or support a war I am opposed to?
quote:
Many people have died so that we can enjoy the freedoms that we do have... |
Sure, in the Revolutionary War, I suppose, but I'm curious as to what other war was actually fought to preserve the US from invasion? I suppose you can make an argument about the War of 1812, but that would be the only other exception, and seeing as how both wars were fought with volunteers, it is my argument that is supported, not yours.
Albert Speer,
quote:
it don't seem right to me for american wars to be fought by the poor and semi-poor when the more wealthy can just sit back with no fear of serving their country... |
What war was this? I assume you mean Vietnam, but this has been proven to be patently false.
quote:
so conscription is only fair. |
Even if you are right, and minorities and the poor make up the bulk of the armed forces, they are there because they volunteered, not because someone made them. So your "fairness" argument isn't accurate.
quote:
it also should be noted how Switzerland has mandatory, peace-time conscription and the Swiss have not been in a war since the 16th century. having conscription may be the road to peace |
Erm, actually the Swiss haven't been in a war in quite a while because of the treaty ending the Napoleonic Wars, which prevented the Swiss from exporting mercenaries. Also, the Swiss haven't been in wars because they take pains not to piss anyone off.
Berzerker,
quote:
David - We have a judicial system that makes mistakes by jailing, even executing, people who are innocent. While that is immoral, we, and you, have no better alternative, so what do we do? While I believe conscription is immoral, and that a nation that needs conscription isn't worth saving since the people aren't willing to fight of their own accord, there are, as Thomas Paine said, certain "necessary evils". |
What are you saying here? It sounds like you are justifying registering for the draft, in which case I agree. Yes, I registered, because if I didn't, it would have caused problems for me. Obviously, I registered with no intention of ever responding to a draft call. The US is ****ing me, so I'll gladly **** the US right back.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Dissident,
quote:
what if a nation is going to invade your nation, and make you a slave to their nation? |
Then I'd volunteer to fight.
quote:
What if your nation was under direct attack. Do you not think that the individual owes society something? |
Saying that I owe "something" to society is a slippery slope, culminating in the belief that society should have final say over every aspect of my being.
quote:
Remember, society provides the invidual with a safe, secure environment (compared to anarchy) in which to pursue happiness. |
Naturally, and if "society", by which you mean "government", is doing a good job, then there should be no problem with people volunteering to defend it, no?
Ming,
quote:
Yep...
But again, that's a straw man argument because the government isn't going to pass that law. |
It's not really a straw man - it's simply an extreme example which I'm using to see how much of an absolutist you are. And judging by your answer, I'd say quite a bit, if you really believe that "society" can force me to wear a pink tutu.
quote:
You have the right to elect politicans that support your positions... you have the right to fight laws in legal ways... but, you still have to follow them, or face the results of your actions. |
Yes, I know that I'm fixing to use the Godwin Principle, but it's still valid...so if 51% of people voted for Hitler, then what Hitler did would have been OK (stick to his actions against German citizens, not foreign nationals, if you prefer)?
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:29
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in any event, whatever the racial make-up of the US military, it is dominated by lower middle class people... is that fair for the lower middle class to be the only ones fighting wars?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
in any event, whatever the racial make-up of the US military, it is dominated by lower middle class people... is that fair for the lower middle class to be the only ones fighting wars? |
You didn't address the obvious counterpoint that no one made them volunteer.
However, you're right in that it isn't really fair for ANYONE to be fighting all of these foreign wars (Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Germany, etc.).
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Ming,
quote:
Our country is what it is... it has evolved over time. You can hide your head in the sand and make all the claims you want about what our country "used" to be, or what the original intent was... but so what. It's not reality. |
What IS reality, though, is that whether you like it or not, the US government is limited by the US Constitution, and the US Constitution doesn't allow the government to tell me I have to wear a pink tutu. The US Constitution also doesn't authorize conscription.
quote:
There are laws... like taxes... and signing up for selective service... that's a fact. And if you don't like it, try to change it in legal fashions... or find another place to live. It really is that simple. |
Laws, though, are subject to the Constitution, wouldn't you say? Further, just because a law is authorized by the Constitution (or if SCOTUS says it is) doesn't necessarily make the law moral, which, again, is the entire point.
Obiwan,
quote:
However, the solution is not to oppose the state, |
So you agree conscription is immoral, but you won't oppose the entity perpetrating the immorality?
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Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:29
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Boris - quote:
Not even remotely analogous to the scenario I posited. First, the British weren't really "outside" invaders, hence the term "revolution." Second, a large portion of the colonists remained loyal to the crown, so instituting a draft to fight their troops would have provoked full-scale revolt against the colonial leaders. Third, the victory of the British would not have been a dire situation for most of the colonists, as it would simply maintain the status quo. Nor were the British engaging in wholesale genocide against the population. |
You said drafts were necessary to repel invasion and I offered an example refuting your claim. You can point to reasons why the draft wasn't necessary or impossible, but that has no bearing on the fact a draft wasn't used. I think that highlights why drafts aren't necessary, people will volunteer in desperate times. Drafts are used primarily to wage wars that don't have widespread support - and volunteering is the benchmark for determining if support exists. How many people would have volunteered for Vietnam? Not enough to prolong that war for a decade. The term "chickenhawk" comes from the Vietnam War and all the able people who supported the war while finding excuses to avoid fighting.
quote:
The fact is, in a real world, a draft might indeed be necessary as a lesser of two evils. |
That's true, but David is only saying it's still evil.
quote:
The beauty of the representative democracy is that the government IS the people and speaks with the voice and authority OF the people. So conscription is, in fact, a democratically-chosen path. As was said, it's part of the "neighborhood dues," along with taxes. You want to partake in all the great things America has to offer? Fine, but you've got to also do your part when called upon. |
That isn't proof of morality.
David - quote:
What are you saying here? It sounds like you are justifying registering for the draft, in which case I agree. Yes, I registered, because if I didn't, it would have caused problems for me. Obviously, I registered with no intention of ever responding to a draft call. The US is ****ing me, so I'll gladly **** the US right back. |
Just pointing out that some evils are necessary. Since we cannot have a judicial system that never makes mistakes, we have to recognise that we will punish the innocent by mistake or have no system at all and live with the results. The US is blessed with geographic and logistic advantages that make a draft unnecessary, but other countries don't always have those advantages. I don't support the draft for the reason I stated at the beginning of my first post, but if we were invaded, I sure wouldn't look with favor upon those who sat back and did nothing (not that you are in that boat). And I'd view them as immoral even if I still lack the moral authority to force them to join the fight.
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Kramerman
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UT, Austin - The live music capital of the world
Jun 2002
time: 23:29
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conscription
If the UNited States is in mortal Danger, it should be all men of age's duty to take up arms and fight. UNfortunately, a lot of men dont have the balls to fight for their way of life and for the ways of life of their loved ones Therefore, I belive, in extreme situations, conscription is good and NECESSARY.
Conscription for offensive crap, like Veitnam, is a little controversial. I havent thought of this much, os i wont say anything yet, but i am kinda against that but can see when it might be good for the country...
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
I sure wouldn't look with favor upon those who sat back and did nothing (not that you are in that boat). And I'd view them as immoral even if I still lack the moral authority to force them to join the fight. |
I would think that the proper view of these people would be contingent upon whether or not the US was behaving morally. That is, did the US start the war? Could the US get out of or avoid the war? Questions like that need answering before we can damn people for not defending the nation, because I can't imagine you saying that people should defend immorality.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Kramerman,
quote:
If the UNited States is in mortal Danger, it should be all men of age's duty to take up arms and fight. UNfortunately, a lot of men dont have the balls to fight for their way of life and for the ways of life of their loved ones |
If people aren't willing to defend the nation, why should the nation exist?
Further, the two times the US has been invaded, there have been plenty of volunteers (Revolution, War of 1812). I don't count the Civil War, which was really caused by the US anyway.
quote:
Conscription for offensive crap, like Veitnam, is a little controversial. I havent thought of this much, os i wont say anything yet, but i am kinda against that but can see when it might be good for the country... |
I fail to see how a war like Vietnam could be good for the country, by which I assume (hope) you mean the good of the people in the country. I also fail to see why the good of the country is important when compared to individual liberty.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Berzerker
Boris -
You said drafts were necessary to repel invasion and I offered an example refuting your claim. You can point to reasons why the draft wasn't necessary or impossible, but that has no bearing on the fact a draft wasn't used. I think that highlights why drafts aren't necessary, people will volunteer in desperate times. Drafts are used primarily to wage wars that don't have widespread support - and volunteering is the benchmark for determining if support exists. How many people would have volunteered for Vietnam? Not enough to prolong that war for a decade. The term "chickenhawk" comes from the Vietnam War and all the able people who supported the war while finding excuses to avoid fighting. |
Still not analagous. First, I said that that drafts [i]may[/b] be necessary, not always. The scenario I described is one wherein the draft would probably be necessary. I'm not sure why you are bringing up Vietnam, though, as that was not a war in which we were invaded. Our vital national interests weren't truly threatened.
quote:
That's true, but David is only saying it's still evil. |
But David appears to live in a fantasy world wherein its possible to not commit immoral acts. No such reality exists, and we serve to disillusion him of this notion. 
quote:
That isn't proof of morality. |
Depends. For a utilitarian, it certainly is moral.
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Ming
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Ming,
What IS reality, though, is that whether you like it or not, the US government is limited by the US Constitution, and the US Constitution doesn't allow the government to tell me I have to wear a pink tutu. The US Constitution also doesn't authorize conscription.
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Whether you like it or not... the constitution does allow the government to pass laws. And while the government would never pass a law saying you have to wear a pink tutu... it can pass laws that say you must pay taxes or can be conscripted.
quote:
Laws, though, are subject to the Constitution, wouldn't you say? Further, just because a law is authorized by the Constitution (or if SCOTUS says it is) doesn't necessarily make the law moral, which, again, is the entire point.
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Yes... and the current laws have been deemed ok according to the constitution... your point?
And as far as moral goes... again, only YOUR opinion, so that doesn't make it a fact... just your opinion.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
But David appears to live in a fantasy world wherein its possible to not commit immoral acts. |
Realistically, we all sin, if you believe the Bible. If you don't believe the Bible, you can still make the argument that it's impossible never to behave immorally due to human nature, and you'd be correct.
Either way, though, there is no excuse not to try to behave morally as often as possible.
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16-07-2003 05:28
The US military is only 38% minorities..........that leaves the other 62% being white..........
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