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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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As a result of not wanting to fully threadjack another thread, for those who are interested in discussing it, here is a thread on conscription.
My position is that conscription is slavery. It is immoral, and can never be justified in any circumstance.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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The utility of conscription was not my point. It was just as wrong in WW2 as it is today.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Ming,
Opinions are not immoral. Acting upon opinions can be immoral. Conscription is telling someone that they have to go be cannon fodder for a war that they very likely don't even want, and if they refuse, throwing them in prison, or worse. That easily fits the definition of involuntary servitude, which is another word for slavery.
Pekka,
quote:
But for us, right now, there is no other way that we can defend ourselves. Maybe in the future when we have more money, we can go for full pro army though.
Of course there is the other point, we only defend our borders strictly. So no one is forced to fight on foreign countries. I see nothing wrong with the arrangement. |
Defend yourselves from whom, exactly?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Pekka,
The security of the state is irrelevant to me, if security conflicts with individual liberty. I see no point of a nation except to protect individual liberty, and saying that you are ultimately protecting liberty by taking it away is contradictory.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
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in times of national emergency then there is often no other choice (britain in 1916 for example), it's all very well arguing that it's immoral but when a country has to then it has to.
i'm not so sure about the kind of 'national service' that pekka has to do though.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
When I was growing up, my mom would make me go to church.
Every Sunday, without fail, whether I wanted to or not (and usually I didn't want to...would have rather slept in). |
If the state was forcing you to go to church, you'd have a point.
Pekka,
quote:
You must be ready if enemy wants to invade. Sure, you should be able to know it before it happens, but then it's too late. You must have active training happening all the time, so you are ready. Otherwise there is no point in training in the first place. |
From a realistic rather than idealistic standpoint, the chances of an invasion of Finland are so remote as to be non-existent.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
in times of national emergency then there is often no other choice (britain in 1916 for example), |
The "national emergency" was your own fault. You're the ones who declared war on Germany, not the other way around. And don't give me any comments about Belgium's neutrality - considering the many crimes Belgium committed in Africa, I don't feel a bit sorry for their neutrality being violated. Yes, it was still wrong, but they weren't entirely blameless, either, and probably committed more immoral acts in Africa than Imperial Germany did in all of Europe.
quote:
it's all very well arguing that it's immoral but when a country has to then it has to. |
So, then, the power of the state should be absolute?
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Richelieu
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Gatineau
Dec 2001
time: 00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd
Pekka,
The security of the state is irrelevant to me, if security conflicts with individual liberty. I see no point of a nation except to protect individual liberty, and saying that you are ultimately protecting liberty by taking it away is contradictory. |
A nation that protects your liberty isn't worth giving up your liberty for ?
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
See...this is where DF and Marx have something in common. He will argue that just because you don't see yourself as being a slave, it doesn't mean that you aren't one. |
OK. Is a conscript a volunteer? No, by definition he is not. Is he performing a service. Obviously. So, could you say that conscription meets the definition of involuntary servitude? Seems clear to me.
As to "not feeling like a slave", why did Pekka not just volunteer? What about those people who DO feel like slaves and DO NOT want to be in the military?
I suppose you could say Pekka is a moral volunteer, if he would have volunteered absent conscription. But this certainly isn't true of everyone.
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C0ckney
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Big Up The Macedonian Massive
Apr 2000
time: 05:29
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personally david, i don't really care about your opinions on the start of ww1. you are simply using that to dodge the point. the fact remains that the country has its back against the wall, and had no other choice, i see any point about the morality or otherwise of it as moot.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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quote:
David Floyd, True. It is very unlikely to happen. But we should still be ready. |
Wouldn't you agree that things such as free trade and understanding other people's POV in disputes is more useful to avoiding war than military preparedness, in this day and age?
Richeliu,
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A nation that protects your liberty isn't worth giving up your liberty for ? |
Certainly not. First off, I can't give up what is natural and inherent (but that's a different argument). Secondly, once a nation forces me to "give up" my liberty, it ceases to protect my liberty, and then your argument becomes invalid anyway.
Vel,
quote:
DF: No. Absolutely not essential that "the state" forces me to. The point is still valid, regardless of "who" is forcing me to do anything. Suppression of liberty is supperssion of liberty, is it not? |
Comparing a parent forcing an 8 year old to go to church and the state forcing a 22 year old to join the military is silly and irrelevant. They are not the same thing, unless you believe that the relationship between adult and state is the same as the relationship between child and parent.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:29
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Cockney,
quote:
personally david, i don't really care about your opinions on the start of ww1. |
The start of WW1 is very valid. If your politicians got themselves unnecessarily into a mess, to save a neutral that committed vast atrocities abroad, then why should the people bail the politicians out?
quote:
you are simply using that to dodge the point. the fact remains that the country has its back against the wall, and had no other choice, i see any point about the morality or otherwise of it as moot. |
The country in no way had its back against the wall. Unless and until the RN was defeated (unlikely), an invasion of Britain was impossible.
Further, you are saying that in extreme situations, moral behavior is not important. Is that correct?
Pekka,
quote:
And as for the rest of them, they don't have to go to army. They can always do civil service. |
The service in the army isn't the primary point. The forced, involuntary service IS the point.
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Or if they don't feel like serving the country, they can go to prison then. |
So much for the nation being free or protecting freedom.
As to telling people to leave if they disagree, then obviously you don't agree that the nation should be in the business of protecting individual liberty, but rather, primarily, in the business of protecting the state. That is, power and authority for its own sake.
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15-07-2003 21:41
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