17-07-2003 05:48									#1
	GoW, you guys are the best allies ever! Suffering from ads?

To our esteemed allies in the great nation of the Glory of War, to whom we have been allied since the time of the Lux war. May our alliance last forever.

As you're probably already aware, Neu Demogyptica has publicly declared war on us and is attacking us. Since our MPP with you is still active, the people of Spain have been rejoicing at the arrival of your riders to the theatre of battle! We were starting to really worry about those Neu Demogyptican Ansar Warriors, but with our forces and your army of Riders combined, I'm sure we can make quick work of their invasion!

We are extremely thankful for this aid in our hour of need. How did it happen that we were so lucky to have allies so thoughtful? You sent your entire army across half the world to arrive just in time to defend us when we are attacked!

To celebrate the good fortune of our alliance, we're sending you some of our ivory for free! You guys deserve every bit of it!

With lots of love,

Spain

	17-07-2003 06:01									#2
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Question, had ND declared war before you sunk their galley?

	17-07-2003 06:06									#3
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Question, did we sink their galley? Why wasn't I told about this?!

Signed,
Honorable Squid Baron of Madrid and Friend of all our Allied Chinese Friends who are here on the border of Spain only because they have an MPP with us...

	17-07-2003 06:10									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Question, had ND declared war before you sunk their galley?

Consider that line in Togas' poem a prophecy of things to come. (It hasn't happened...yet.)

	17-07-2003 06:22									#5
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I thought GoW Declared war before ND did. There wasn't anything in our treaties that said GoW couldn't declare war on you if they wanted to.

	17-07-2003 06:22									#6
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Aha! That explains it!

I was wondering what that meant.

So, Panzer, we didn't attack ND... Now what?

	17-07-2003 06:47									#7
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I thought GoW Declared war before ND did. There wasn't anything in our treaties that said GoW couldn't declare war on you if they wanted to.

Indeed, when you declared war on us while the MPP was still active, I suppose that might have technically terminated the MPP or at least you meant that the termination of the MPP was implied when you declared war.

I guess this means we're no longer friends and allies

	17-07-2003 07:10									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos Indeed, when you declared war on us while the MPP was still active, I suppose that might have technically terminated the MPP or at least you meant that the termination of the MPP was implied when you declared war. I'm glad we cleared that little issue up, aren't you?

EDIT: note that the last line in the quote is Arnie's fourth attempt at the closing line, it has since changed again to protect the innocent.

Yes, yes, very nice. And it warms my heart that you consider us your best allies ever.

	17-07-2003 07:25									#9
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All hail our great allies the Chinese! Three cheers to their honesty!

Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah!

(Oh, wait, what?)

	17-07-2003 07:36									#10
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My response to this thread ... bah! Rookies!



But much more importantly - Vox has the best Icon!

(according to GF. He should know - he created it. )

	17-07-2003 07:37									#11
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Three cheers for Captain Panzer! Three cheers for Captain Panzer! Three cheers for Captain Panzer!

Harpo! What the heck are you doing?

	17-07-2003 07:46									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Beta My response to this thread ... bah! Rookies!

Now that's not very polite.

Besides, the two sides in this little fest are just getting warmed up. I have a funny feeling we've only seen the tip of the iceberg here. Afterall, I plan to bring out the old SPDG Presidential election cannons and I have no doubt that my adversaries will do similar.

Of course, we're right and they're wrong, which makes things easier, but I'd rather not let it breed complacency

	17-07-2003 08:49									#13
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I assumed this post to mean to say you sunk an ND boat

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...825#post2180825

If you haven't sunk a boat (and you say you didn't declare war), what gives?

	17-07-2003 09:11									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 I assumed this post to mean to say you sunk an ND boat

Does this mean you'll take it all back and help defend against Neu Demogyptica as promised?

	17-07-2003 09:17									#15
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Did you sink the boat!?

Maybe if you tell me truthfully, I can give you an answer.

	17-07-2003 09:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Did you sink the boat!?

No. We did not sink the regular boat with our veteran boat, we didn't even attack it (yet). Hell, RP Team has never attacked a single unit of any nationality other than barbarians the entire game to my knowledge.

Your faithful allies,

Spain

	17-07-2003 09:22									#17
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Please indicate to me where and when we had a NAP

	17-07-2003 09:33									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Please indicate to me where and when we had a NAP

MZ, you're a great guy and honestly no hard feelings at all (hell, I'm a Diplomacy player from way back, this type of thing happens), but only you would consider declaring war on an MPP-partner completely above board

So what are you proposing Glory of War should do, declare war on themselves as well as Neu Demogyptica?

Come to think of that... we probably wouldn't mind

	17-07-2003 09:47									#19
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Oh thanks for pointing out this loophole mr zen, this clarifies everything... now your reputation is safe! Applause! To the rest of the world, no, you have to fear GoW no longer!!!They found a loophole! you guys are really sooo righteous...

	17-07-2003 10:07									#20
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We aim to please

	17-07-2003 10:22									#21
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Just one Question how often did you atack in a single player game a Nation with whom you had a MPP?

Sometimes you are forced to do that.

A MPP is not a NAP.

Come to think of it. one of most used Phrase in cotracts with spain is :"This Contract superseds all other Pacts with other Nations". What if GoW had such a contract with us so the MPP is superseded.
Just a question.

Anotherthing that i want to clarify. Neu Demogyptica has declared War after GoW has declared War on you. I can not belive that any pact is still active after a war has been declared.

	17-07-2003 10:24									#22
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Hmm...

So it's ok to declare war on your MPP partner?

Who else agrees with this?

So lets say you declared war on us, but the MPP is still in effect. We did not attack anyone nor declare war on anyone; so according to the MPP GoW must declare war on ND now.

Then GoW is at war with it's ally against RP while being at war with it's MPP partner...sounds reasonable for a team named the "Warmonger's."

	17-07-2003 10:25									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Darekill Just one Question how often did you atack in a single player game a Nation with whom you had a MPP? Sometimes you are forces to do that. A MPP is not a NAP. Come to think of it. one of most used Phrase in cotracts with spain is :"This Contract superseds all other Pacts with other Nations". What if GoW had such a contract with us so the MPP is superseded. Just a question.

Hey, if you guys want to debate what the meaning of is is, be my guest.

I'm just glad it's been made clear that ND and GoW don't see any problem with attacking an MPP-partner. That's all we really needed to know.

	17-07-2003 10:28									#24
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Darekill, the pact is still active of course, but GoW is not honoring it, that is our point.

As far as attacking a MPP partner; you are one of few who find that reasonable and justifiable in this situation. Remember, we are not the aggressors here. ND and GoW are. If RP had done something to provoke this, that would be different. But RP was in fact trying to secure NAP's with both ND and GoW for the longest time, but to no avail.

	17-07-2003 10:45									#25
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We found too many loopholes inserted by RP in the NAP you wanted us to sign

	17-07-2003 11:16									#26
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Speaking purely theoretically, suppose Civ A has a MPP with Civ B. Civ A then attacks Civ B. But, since a MPP is in place, Civ A has to defend Civ B against any attacker. Therefore, it is incumbent on Civ A to attack itself in defense of Civ B. The quickest and most efficient way to do that would be for Civ A to disband all its military forces, or at least all its forces in a position to attack Civ B. (Of course with the MPP still in place, Civ B would have to take care not to take advantage of the situation to attack Civ A or else it would have to declare war on itself too. ) Considering the ridiculousness of the alternative, it only makes sense to me that MPPs should be viewed as carrying implicit NAPs unless there is a clear understanding to the contrary.

Note again that this consideration of the issue is theoretical, partly with an eye toward possible future agreements. I don't know enough about the specifics of GoW/RP negotiations and agreements to attempt to judge that situation at this time.

Nathan

	17-07-2003 11:19									#27
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Oh, and GS has no position on this matter, other than the fact that we have no position.

Is that a position? Damn.

	17-07-2003 11:36									#28
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Continuing the purely theoretical debate, I think that a declaration of war voids any previous agreements and treaties, including MPPs. (just like in the game itself).

So the only question IMHO is wether the declaration of war itself is a violation of the MPP treaty or not. Since this is debatable I'd add to any MPP treaty the following sentence: "neither party shall declare war on the other". Simple as that.

	17-07-2003 11:47									#29
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Tioberious, do you really think it needs to be wrote out like that?

And, yes, a declaration of war with a party in which you have a MPP is a violation of that MPP. The game even supports this. If you have a MPP with someone,go ahead and declare war on them, then check if you still have a MPP active with them. You will not. The MPP was voided by the party who declared war. If you decalre peace, the MPP doesn't come back into play, in game, you must make another.

So long story short, if you have a MPP you are violating it by decalring war on the party you have it with.

	17-07-2003 11:50									#30
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Now we finally know what happened with Lux. They where attacked by their allies!