19-07-2003 04:48									#1
	Poll: War on CDG Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Should we attack CDG soon?

This is not a bill.

	19-07-2003 05:26									#2
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The answer from the former leader and PR Rep of the Democratic Industrialists of Apolyton (DIA) (aka, "The Peacenik Party" )...

Hell Yes

	19-07-2003 05:26									#3
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Thanks MJW - I was jsut about to do something like this.

To just give everyone a quick review: GCA has had astoundingly lucky success in their counterattack against CDG, who attacked them some time ago. SO much so that GCA has taken the two Southern CDG cities. It would appear Elucidium, the capital of CDG, is next. This of course changes things for our AltSp, which called for us to take CDG out, gaining their land.

The question is whether we should join GCA in attacking CDG now so we can take the two CDG cities closest to us: Cuido de Alcohol and Possumopolis, as well as try for the Chokepoint city and Elucidium itself. There are many things to consider in this decision, and they can be followed up or discussed in this thread.

	19-07-2003 05:39									#4
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I vote yes, its now or never it seems.

I also don't think we should communicate this with the other teams or even worry about what they think. Deal with securing our future now, and let the diplomacy solve itself after the war when they are (justifiably so) worried about our next move.

As for what to grab, Id say as much as we can grab and be reasonably secure still against counter attack from GCA (in case they get brave given their stunning successes thus far).

	19-07-2003 11:02									#5
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Is there any possibility (including save/reload) that GCA could be involved in some funny biz to get that much luck?

	19-07-2003 11:27									#6
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From what CFC said about it in the chat that was posted at MZO when 'Poly was down, apparently CDG thinks their might be some funny biz. Who knows? But it will be interesting to find out the answer.

	19-07-2003 12:27									#7
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holy sh*t, it's unanimous!

--Togas

	19-07-2003 13:23									#8
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DIE DIE DIE!!!

	19-07-2003 13:35									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon Is there any possibility (including save/reload) that GCA could be involved in some funny biz to get that much luck?

All I can think of, is that CDG and GCA intend to 'join'. ie, a phoney war in which CDG's cities fall like dominoes to GCA and CDG's citizens are joining GCA's forum. We will see if that is the case in the fullness of time.

	19-07-2003 15:15									#10
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I highly doubt it. CDG built a temple in Zaraguya. You cannot gift the city over to another Civ and have the Temple reamain, at least I'm 99% sure you can't. So they would have wasted many shields doing do.

Plus, wouldn't it make more sense for CDG to build settler and workers so the could 'gift' those as well?

	19-07-2003 18:56									#11
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I don't mean that kind of funny biz- I mean GCA doctoring, altering, or re-rolling the RNG to get such unusual luck in their assaults.

	19-07-2003 18:58									#12
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With "preserve random seed" on, reloading the same attack over and over again would always end in the same result. However, if they lose an attack, they could reload the turn and not make the attack instead, thus keeping the unit. Also, I'm not sure if changing the order units attack in changes the random seed... something to investigate.

	19-07-2003 19:33									#13
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quote: Also, I'm not sure if changing the order units attack in changes the random seed... something to investigate.

The way that works is something like this:
srand(value, ussually the time); <--- C function which initializes the random # seed

val = rand(); Returns a "random" value.

If you for example say:

srand(50);

then say:
x = rand()
y = rand()
z = rand()

Then print x, y, and z out, they will be the same every time. However, if you initialize srand() differently, say from the computer clock, then they won't be the same.

What many game makers do then is save the value used to initialize srand() with the rest of the save game information, that way they can easily reproduce bugs by removing the "randomness" factor. In civ3's case it also helps reduce cheating.

Ok back to your original question:

Changing the order _can_ change the results because only the sequence of random #'s stays the same.

So for example:
Attacking unit A with unit B uses 3 random #s (3 hit points), these come out to say 1, 2, and 3 and you lose.

So you reload and instead do a bombard with a catapoult first (or some other action which uses a random #). The bombard will get the "1". Then you attack and you roll a 2, 3, and a 5. This time you win because the random #'s used for the particular battle are different.

However, that doesn't mean I think they are cheating. It is possible though, and it wouldn't even be that hard to cheat somewhat with a two front war since you have alot of units in two different theatres to try different combinations of actions with. It would be pretty hard to get a stunning series of successes though without any breaks in turns (turns where they skip all action because all outcomes are bad) on just one front like they have. In any case, I think its impossible to conclusively prove since the "Cheat" if there is one is just replaying the save in different ways until they get a result they like.

	20-07-2003 01:02									#14
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YEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

	22-07-2003 01:39									#15
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100% agreement on this point

-
Hopefully GCA doesn't get mad if Apolyton enters into the war, taking advantage of their already weakening CDG We should have a contingency plan incase GCA decides to declare war on us because of our opportunistic seizure of CDG territory.