21-07-2003 04:47									#31
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We need to decide if we accept thos cities in advance of having a ratified treaty.

	21-07-2003 04:48									#32
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither Arnelos has reported to me that it will take 24 to 48 hours for RP to ratify the Treaty. What do we want to do?

Sigh. Can't they get their act together. We've been playing with this treaty for a couple days now, you would think they would have some idea.

Can you get some assurances from them so we can go ahead and play the turn, 24 hrs is too long to hold it now, IMHO.

This could be a trap...

	21-07-2003 04:48									#33
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I'd go with the landing only if GoW has already declared war on us. Otherwise we probably want them going for RP cities... cause RP can just give those cities to us whenever GoW is in range.. and GoW becomes rather insignificant while we focus on ND.

	21-07-2003 04:51									#34
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I'm ok with going ahead with plans before it's ratified. I'm sure they realize they are dead if they backstab us.

	21-07-2003 04:51									#35
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Hurricane needs to finish its harbor for when it runs out of food to keep working both mountains. With a harbor, it can cycle back and forth between a 15-shield pike production mode with positive food (yielding a tile or two to Sandstorm) and a 20-shield MedInf production mode with negative food. Without a harbor, it can't give up any tiles that generate two food even when those tiles won't help it finish its builds faster, and it's not in a good position to store food part of the time in order to run at 20 shields per turn the rest of the time.

I also want to finish Monsoon's harbor since we can probably leverage the extra food there into extra production (and with it two turns from completion, we'd waste a few shields switching to a knight anyhow). Typhoon could also take advantage of a harbor to let us plant and work an extra forest if we want to. But harbors in Tornado and Bolderberg won't make a difference in our overall production capacity any time in the near future, since they don't have access to whales. I'd wanted those harbors more so we could increase the cities' populations for increased wealth, but we have more immediate concerns now. O.G. is another place where we could get a little extra long-term production with a harbor, although that's a longer-term proposition since it would probably take at least twelve turns to finish a harbor there.

	21-07-2003 04:51									#36
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I get the sense we are being stalled. I am not certain, but maybe it would be better if we sit. This is a critical time for us, just as it was for RP.

	21-07-2003 04:54									#37
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24 to 48 hours? Sigh... you'd suspect them to be faster.

I say we saddle up, and start shipping. If they outright refuse it and this turns out to have been a stall (I can't imagine, but it is RP we're dealing with after all), we invade them anyway. Just keep a MI or 3 close to Inchon, so that we can take those 2 horsies down if we need to, and we should have our bases covered.

The warriors plan won't be so easy to perform: we need to break a lot of roads to have a decent amount of warrior cities, and pillage the harbor in Wittlch city. But there is always the other option: start building knights in high production cities, and pillage all of our iron resources. This could make all our cities into horse/warrior cities for 5-10 turns, while not totally abandoning knight builds.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 04:57									#38
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quote: Originally posted by notyoueither I get the sense we are being stalled. I am not certain, but maybe it would be better if we sit. This is a critical time for us, just as it was for RP.

They are notorious for stalling tactics. Perhaps they have recieved a better offer. Perhaps GoW backed off from toledo because they are moving back against ND.

A lot of comments in the main forum have discussed "true friends" I wonder if that means something...

	21-07-2003 05:07									#39
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Regarding what units to send, I'm inclined toward pure slow-movers in the first wave and almost all fast-movers in the second. That way the fast-movers can catch up with the slow-movers and we can consolidate the two waves into the largest stack in the world to throw at whichever rival we need to target. Unfortunately, it's going to be difficult to include much in the way of pikes. The most pikes we can send without slowing down galleys (beyond what picking up a settler will slow one of them down anyhow) is five (one of them elite), and that includes the two pikes in the galley we had scouting toward RP's south.

The mix I'm thinking in terms of (counting the southern pikes already on a ship) is:

5 pikes (1 elite, 4 vet)
1 settler
6 vet MedInfs
4 cats

or we could trade MedInfs for additional cats if we want to. The second wave would include probably ten knights (eight from horsemen, including the three already upgraded, and two from WCs) and assorted slow-movers.

By the way, the settler won't unload until the third turn (counting the current turn as the first), but he'll unload directly on NM 3-3 so he'll be able to found a city at the same time he could if he'd unloaded a turn earlier in a different location. The galley picking him up had to make a slight detour.

	21-07-2003 05:12									#40
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Let's f*cking tell them then... we are executing on the plan, in all good faith. If they betray us, they die.

And yes, I say let's go for it. I haven't seen the save yet (can it be sent please?), but it seems to me that worst case, we lose the Cats and our first wave... we will have the opportunity to re-direct subsequent troops as need be.

Nathan, as far as I am concerned, use your discretion on the harbors and other economics.

	21-07-2003 05:15									#41
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Do we have any ideas for a PR campaign once the turn ships out?

It would probably be better to be on the offensive pr wise, than on the defensive this time. Better to start threads than just respond to the GoW and ND ones.

To that end, what is our message?

a few ideas
-we are peacekeepers installed in RP border cities
-we, as victims of a similar backstab feel sympathy
-Stormian Catholics are a powerful minority in our senate
-Protectors of the Church, have to go through us

(ooh, what about making this a crusade to drive the moors out of spain?)

Who is going to make the posts, the first round should be limited I think, to a few people, Frater Ralphus included.

Thoughts, suggestions?

	21-07-2003 05:18									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Let's f*cking tell them then... we are executing on the plan, in all good faith. If they betray us, they die. And yes, I say let's go for it. I haven't seen the save yet (can it be sent please?), but it seems to me that worst case, we lose the Cats and our first wave... we will have the opportunity to re-direct subsequent troops as need be.

If they screw us, then we can abandon santiago and bilba, assuming they aren't captured. We can take out Inchon's two horses relatively easily, I would say. What would be a ***** is if they disbanded the cats right then. No, I don't trust them, maybe this is a set up to get a three way gangbang on us going, but I hope they would have a little more characterthan that.

quote: Originally posted by Theseus Nathan, as far as I am concerned, use your discretion on the harbors and other economics.

	21-07-2003 05:29									#43
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don't agree on not sending knights this turn, Nathan. But I'm no general... it's just that we probably can use them to pick off troops and return to safety before the second wave arrives to the front.

Further, do we need cats in the first wave? I would use them to supplement if there are still spots open, otherwise concentrate on killers (instead of damagers).

As to the harbors and things: I fully trust Nathan to make the right decision, however some plans would be nice to discuss in front. No matter how good you are, you can always use more opinions / ideas.

Oh, and what about pillaging all our iron in let's say 3 turns? Is that feasable (having enough workers nearby to rebuild mines)? Is it worth it? Building prebuilds should mean we don't lose knight capability if we keep it unconnected for e.g. 5 turns if timed right..

DeepO

	21-07-2003 05:34									#44
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Coupla things:

I'm not a huge fan of pillaging resources, although obviously MP includes many many tactics that are not applicable in SP.

I find it hard to believe that the roleplaying faction of RP would go so far as the latest PM to Sir Ralph... yeah, I'm paranoid about a gangbanging on us too, but...

I shot a PM to Vel... I think he'd like all this, even if only to what / understand the dynamics.

I think General Theseus is about to convert to Catholicism (even though I am Scottish (er, Jewish) myself ).

I think General Theseus is, for

	21-07-2003 05:46									#45
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One more thing we can ask for in the future is that RP sends us their WM every turn, so that we at least can see the state of their improvements. I'm not sure if it was fixed already that getting their WM also updates new improvements of any land we have previously seen, but it might help.

As to pillaging resources in MP: in SP it is kind of an exploit, but here? Nah... Vox already did it, in a smart way.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 05:48									#46
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I was thinking the KNights would serve useful in Scouting/Counterattacks, especially if GoW stays out of it. ND, to take cities fast, would need it's Ansars to outpace their Pikes. In such cases, we would be in a position to kill Ansars with our Knights, and bring the Pikes to cover them.

If RP gets in trouble of losing Pamplona or Zaragosa (by Ansars outstripping their defenders and getting lucky), our 3 Knights could very well end up saving our Cats and major cities from capture. We'd probably win the attacks, killing 3 Ansars, and then ND has to either attack our Knights (giving RP respite, and at not too bad odds for us as most the surviving Ansars would be damaged), or try to take a city with their reduced offensive capacity and with our Knights poised to retake it even if they succeed.

	21-07-2003 05:50									#47
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Theseus
Coupla things:

I'm not a huge fan of pillaging resources, although obviously MP includes many many tactics that are not applicable in SP.

I find it hard to believe that the roleplaying faction of RP would go so far as the latest PM to Sir Ralph... yeah, I'm paranoid about a gangbanging on us too, but...

I shot a PM to Vel... I think he'd like all this, even if only to what / understand the dynamics.

I think General Theseus is about to convert to Catholicism (even though I am Scottish (er, Jewish) myself ), and go on a bit of a rampage...

	21-07-2003 05:55									#48
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By the way, there's one serious complication to the transition from peacetime to war production. We already have 81 shields accumulated in Tempest, so we'll lose a little over 30 switching it to a knight (by the time next turn's production is added). I hate to lose that, but we probably need the production.

My current thoughts on production are:

Monsoon - finish harbor, 2 turns.
Whirlwind - switch to knight, 5-7 turns depending on tile allocations.
Arashi - Alredy in two-turn pike mode. May look into irrigating and working more mountains to switch to two-turn MedInfs at some point if the war continues long enough.
Tempest - Switch to knight which finishes next turn, and switch to two-turn MedInfs.
O.G. - Continue work on harbor.
Bolderberg - Switch to knight (finishes in three turns) and then build 3-turn pikes and/or 4-turn MedInfs.
Typhoon - Switch to knight; finishes in two turns if I'm juggling things right. (I hate to do it, but it's another extra knight for our second wave.)
Sufa - switch to pikeman; completes next turn.
Bolderberg: Switch to MedInf; completes next turn.
EotS - Four turns from finishing a knight, and five from growing. Growth may make it practical to produce three-turn MedInfs if I can get the tile mix right.
Hurricane - Finish its harbor in three turns, build a couple two-turn pikes, and then start probably alternating MedInfs and pikes.
Blizzard and Inchoff - finish their temples for access to better tiles for more production and to help our culture.
Dissidentville - Let it grow and make it a production center as best we can for now. Don't worry about moving it until after the war.
Cyclone - Keep building workers.

	21-07-2003 05:58									#49
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Resource disconnect and upgrading is optimal for 'small city' empires. We've gone with more a 'large city' empire, but in the north we are still small.

We could sell the Harbor, and pillage HH1 and HH11 (as opposed to pillaging an extra tile that Elipolis will need). That would give us 5 10 turn Warrior factories, average of a Warrior to upgrade every other turn.. though they all will come at once.

Not sure that using those cities for Workers won't pay off more in the long run though. An extra Med Inf every other turn would be pretty nice though, and the timing would be about right. The other thought would be to build Horsemen there, about half rushed with gold. They'd be 140g Knights.. and would be a means to keep our gold going towards Knight production/upgrades after we've finished all our current upgrades.

	21-07-2003 06:01									#50
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What about Sandstorm? Still a Worker/Settler pump?

	21-07-2003 06:06									#51
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Also, where would the best Catapult production be? Looking long term, we want lots of Cannon and tons of Artillery. Probably keeping our number of Cats to about 50% the number of Pikes.

Catapults will make good units to deny landings...as they can ping away at any ships that happen to stop by our shores.

	21-07-2003 06:12									#52
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What if we went with the Great Wall? It's 3 Knights worth of shields admittedly... but I think it could end up being worth 1000's of shields in the long run. Our Walls will be better, and more importantly, GoW/ND's walls won't.

If we have the 16 units necessary for wave two already, I think it might be worth considering. If we need Tempest units to fill the Galleys though, probably not.

	21-07-2003 06:13									#53
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So we stop prebuilding a wonder in Tempest, then? It's not unreasonable as we'll likely be having a few chances on leaders, but still...

SS I would keep in growth mode, we still need settlers.

Inchoff: if we can use a settler from SS to found a city there in about 8 turns, do we still need a temple build? That could become another pike / MI.

Aeson, I agree that pillaging our iron might not be ideal, but still... with a lot of planning we might probably get away with it. As to horses builds in the North: maybe... but 140 gold knights are kind of expensive, if you can have 40 gold MIs in the same time. We're not bulking with cash, especially not if we want to continue research the coming 20 turns.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:16									#54
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cats... good idea. But we still have some lousy cities like Elipolis we should keep busy Elipolis won't build a FP anyway, that's for sure now.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:18									#55
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Okay, I'll replace three MedInfs with three knights in the first wave. I agree that GS knights could do nasty things to ansars trying to attack Pamplona.

The logic behind my proposed force mix is that I'd rather consolidate two waves into a massive strike force before we start serious offensive operations. Once we do that, knights can provide an ample offensive punch, but I'd like to have a few cats to help out on defense.

	21-07-2003 06:19									#56
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oh, and the Great wall: hmmm... it crosses continents, right? but how long would it take to complete, shouldn't we have gone into full attacking mode already by then? But indeed, denying it to ND and GoW is worth a lot, they have walls in many cities already. They have to think about it, though.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson What about Sandstorm? Still a Worker/Settler pump?

That's my thinking at the moment, but I'm not quite sure. I'll look at it more closely once it finishes its current settler next turn.

	21-07-2003 06:23									#58
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO oh, and the Great wall: hmmm... it crosses continents, right? but how long would it take to complete, shouldn't we have gone into full attacking mode already by then? But indeed, denying it to ND and GoW is worth a lot, they have walls in many cities already. They have to think about it, though. DeepO

6 turns in temepst. sounds like a good enough idea to me. Might save us, not sure how much however.

edit: or 5 turns if the workers are juggled a bit

I'm fuzzy on how it works, cause I never build it. It only doubles the city walls (strong against barbs too, I know) does it do anything on size 8 and up cities? (is the size 7 bug still in effect with the gw?)

	21-07-2003 06:26									#59
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Remember that we'll probably need to supply RP with Iron shortly. 3-4 turns and they could very easily have lost Vigo. The Iron colony couldn't be defended even if they build it, which I don't think they are planning to.

	21-07-2003 06:28									#60
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quote: is the size 7 bug still in effect with the gw?

It was in 1.14f, not sure now. Also not sure if walls are targetted by bombardment first in size 7+ cities... anyone know?