20-07-2003 09:54									#1
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What is not critical?

We need the ink dry on the RP treaty before we accept those cities. If the treaty is not final before then, then we need to stall as long as possible in playing the turn. Everything depends on having RP willingly committed to the end game alliance.

Load 'em up and move 'em out at any rate. We will either be liberating RP, or conquering them. Although, troop composition does depend on which is which.

Please move north with forces sufficient to cover the GoW crossing. We really don't need a couple riders running around causing mayhem.

Prepare for the rapid transportation of the RP units unloading from the galley beside Inchon. Evacuate the city, and place any cats that we may grant them on a road ajacent to their units and the city. Offer Inchon accepted to RP.

I guess that we accept Miller Town back from Vox and wish them well in their new homes.

I am sure there is a lot I am not covering. What is it? Let's try to keep the debate on details to their repective threads and then post the consensii(?) here.

	21-07-2003 01:48									#2
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We should get dyes unaccepted from Lego. The deal hasn't been ratified by them (which I'll ask about as fast as I can catch Vondrack), but just in case, trade them furs for their dyes, and accept. If they then accept, we at least have one more luxury.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 02:01									#3
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The save is here. I'll open it when I'm done showering.

	21-07-2003 02:07									#4
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I opened it. RP gifts Bilbao and Santiago (accepted), Vox offers Miller Town (not accepted), Lego offers a Luxury.

	21-07-2003 02:13									#5
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Vox offers Miller town unaccepted? is this a mistake, or did we not send them 60 gold they were asking for, and is this their retaliation?

Should I wait until the deal between us and RP is ratified before contacting Lego?

DeepO

	21-07-2003 02:29									#6
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okay, lux deal with Lego is ratified, so send them furs, please.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 02:35									#7
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Have we ratified the treaty yet? I think nearly everyone has weighed in on it in some form, and I haven't seen any outright no's.

	21-07-2003 02:44									#8
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The official plan, at least last I saw, was that we'd provide the 60 gold when they offered Miller Town back. I'll offer 60 gold on our side and accept Vox's offer, and that should finish the deal.

	21-07-2003 03:01									#9
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I haven't been following the military discussions recently. Can anyone please give me a short run-down of our plan to save RP? How fast are we going to get there, where are we going and how do Bilbao and Toledo fit in the picture?
I already got the part about Inchon and the catapults (btw, they landed near Inchon this turn as planned).

	21-07-2003 03:14									#10
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Shiber, there's a summary (rather longish one, I admit) here: http://apolyton.com/forums/showthre...944#post2190944

enjoy

DeepO

	21-07-2003 03:15									#11
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We rush as much as we can to New Madrid. They gift us the city, we move through to Toledo. They gift us that city. We defend in the East. New Madrid goes back to them ASAP.

We need to take a settler with us to build the port at NM 3 3. In the long run that will be replaced by a port at 6 9, but 6 9 lacks a needed road at NM 9 right at the moment. Or, we could take a worker and build the road and just put down the port at NM 6 9 right off.

	21-07-2003 03:18									#12
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Did we take any gold when capturing The Voice? I think we were supposed to send it back too, but not sure.

---------------

Bilbao and Toledo are hopefully a buffer against GoW. If GoW is going to respect the NAP, it takes their Riders out of the picture for several turns, at least enough for us to get the second wave of units over. GoW either says 'screw it' one way or the other I think... either they break the NAP with us, or with ND. Otherwise they stand to gain absolutely nothing from their Riders. They'd realize that RP is willing to give everything to us instead of letting them have anything.

We will land 15 units and a Settler in 2 turns. Get control of NM, move the Settler to NM33 and found the city the next turn. Our troops move through NM, and we give it back to RP. Depending on what GoW is doing, we can either help in the E or W. The next wave of units we can send is another 16, which we land in the NM33 city.

RP is going to lose most everything W of Pamplona and Zaragosa. Vigo and Leon will hopefully cost ND a couple units to take at least. RP should be able to Pamplona and Zaragosa as long as they are willing to teleport their units from Toledo there and let us worry about GoW for now. Otherwise I'm afraid they could lose Pamplona. All ND would have to do is race ahead with their Ansars and they'd have it dead to rights.

If ND keeps it slow, RP could hold Pamplona, Toledo, and Zaragosa... but we wouldn't want to risk our Cats when it's the enemy (ND) determining whether they are safe or not.

	21-07-2003 03:28									#13
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Has the exact make-up of our first wave already been decided? I saw a couple of ideas, but nothing final yet, I thought.

As to the gold gotten from The Voice: we gave that back, Aeson. And I was unaware of the 60 gold as part of the Miller Town deal. Doesn't matter much though... for Vox at least. We could have gotten an extra turn of production from that city.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 03:38									#14
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Okay, I got it now.
Do we want to use Inchon to teleport some units to EotS, or is there no need? Just a thought in case anyone missed this option.

	21-07-2003 03:42									#15
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Good idea, but I don't think we'll need the teleportation. We will have to defend North Stormia against invasions, and can probably reach our boarding sites on foot as well before we need them. We're looking at a 3-turn roundabout time, IIRC, so next wave can only load in 3 turns.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 03:43									#16
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Well, a Settler and the 3 Knights are a given I think. That gives us 12 more units. 8 Pikes and 4 Med Inf would be good. Or 6/6.

The 'best' makeup is going to be determined by GoW really. If they hold back, we'd want more attackers, if they join in, we need lots of Pikes (so we can hold the mountain pass between Toledo and NM). So we should go for a well balanced stack which will perform decently regardless of what happens.

	21-07-2003 03:51									#17
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Do we believe that we will have enough units to:
1) Defend Stormia
2) Defend RP
3) Launch an attack at ND across the east-west mountain range?

If yes to all above the above, let's keep #3 in mind when composing the first wave or two.

[Edited for correct priority]

Last edited by Theseus on 21-07-2003 at 04:22

	21-07-2003 03:56									#18
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Should we send a note to GoW, that they're not supposed to violate our borders (namely those of Bilbao) or otherwise they are in material breach of our NAP?

	21-07-2003 04:04									#19
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As far as my opinion goes on this, you should change the priority of that list, my beloved general. Defending Stormia will always remain more important than whatever we decide to do on Bob

But here's another question we have been avoiding a bit, but need to divert attention to: how are we going to change back into military mode? Do we change all harbors to knights or other units, or are we going to let them finish first?

As much as possible, I would prefer ending a few of them, especially those in Typhoon and Tornado. This would make it possible for us to change Cyclone back into unit building mode (without a aquaduct, it's use is limited though), without losing too much pop growth.

Hurricane doesn't really need a harbor soon, does it? That can also change to a knight. And maybe we can turn Vox country in a warrior zone, at least it does some good then.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 04:06									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Should we send a note to GoW, that they're not supposed to violate our borders (namely those of Bilbao) or otherwise they are in material breach of our NAP?

well, if they step foot in bilbao, they'll take it anyway, so I'm not sure this would do any good. if they want it they'll take it, no other reason to go in the borders.

hmm, I really could go both ways on this though, good points for all the options. I would probably say nothing and let ND and GoW ***** about it first.

	21-07-2003 04:10									#21
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Nah, we'll need to send a note anyway, like mentioned by nye in the 'ambassadors report' thread. So better to include it ("a NAP is no ROP" I believe the statement was) It's going to be difficult to ease them, we shouldn't outright provoke them if at all possible.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 04:13									#22
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Yes, we need to make sure they don't enter our borders and bypass the city. They should be forced to go through the jungle, or we have a reason to get rid of the unliked NAP.

	21-07-2003 04:17									#23
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One more idea to consider: we're going to need some knight support on North Stormia anyway, and we have a galley in Wittlich city. Why wouldn't we upgrade 2 knights within reach, and in case GoW breaks the NAP ship them over to Port Isolation? Taking that city won't mean much, and perhaps there are more then 2 defenders, but at least we'll be scaring GoW about an Northern invasion, and might disrupt some of their cities

DeepO

	21-07-2003 04:29									#24
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Thanks for the correction, DeepO.

Re putting a scare on GoW up at Port Isolation, I'd rather scare them with a consolidated "shock and awe" assault on ND, plainly in GoW's view as it crosses the east-west mountains.

	21-07-2003 04:36									#25
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quote: And maybe we can turn Vox country in a warrior zone

A very good idea. Warriors waiting for upgrades can line the coasts as well as anything else...

We can take a look at whats defending Port Isolation with the Galley. If it's a Spear/Warrior/Horseman, the Knights would defenitely be a good idea. They arent' connected, so couldn't upgrade, and not likely to have any Riders close enough to help. Not so sure I'd want to risk it against a Pike showing.

--------------

As to what we should say to GoW, we probably shouldn't bring up the NAP at all. If they are going to break it already, it won't help, and we don't want to provoke them to the point they feel they have to attack. If they keep going S, we would then do the same thing in Madrid... they have nothing to gain 'from RP' unless they attack us, and the longer they don't realize that, the better.

	21-07-2003 04:39									#26
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Oh I agree... but one doesn't exclude the other. If we have the troops up North, we might as well use them. We can ship 4 units with that galley in one turn; 2 knights, 1 MI and a pike should be enough to take the city.

It's not that we really need that city (although it holds some advantages, like us being able to spot an invasion coming sooner), it's more a kind of retaliation threat. If they cross our borders in Bilbao, we can the same turn land those 4 units in their territory, and ask them to either retreat their riders back out of our territory, away from RP, or start losing core cities. The ND scare will of course also work, but will require a lot more turns to set up.

Plus it might be a good diversion without costing us a lot of units to perform: if they think a full fledged assault on GoW is imminent, they will scramble to defend their core, instead of keeping us out of ND space.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 04:41									#27
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cross post. As far as I can see, there's a spear defending right now in Port Isolation. That might have changed the past 2 turns, though.

	21-07-2003 04:44									#28
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Arnelos has reported to me that it will take 24 to 48 hours for RP to ratify the Treaty.

What do we want to do?

	21-07-2003 04:45									#29
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Hmmm... but it might also incent GoW into a war with us, rather than the ND backstab, although I suppose one could argue the reverse too (i.e., our threat scares them into the backstab).

	21-07-2003 04:46									#30
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How many tiles would we need to block, assuming they wouldn't try suiciding galleys.

I like the warriors idea as well, why not put some voxian tactics to use, at least the effective one.

I agree with Aeson about pushing GoW too much about the NAP. Also, the less we show our hand early on, the better. I also find it to be a bit condescending, if thats the right word, to throw this in their face.

We need to have a response ready when they claim that we ourselves violated it by a) discussing it with RP and b) taking a city in the war path is aggression.

Can someone send the save, or is it too early, as we haven't agreed upon the pact yet?