21-07-2003 06:33									#61
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Tempest could complete the Great Wall in six turns, at a cost of one knight and two and a half MedInfs. I like the idea, but I'm not sure how much of that is objective and how much is my hatred for wasting shields.

Regarding tricks to build non-iron units without cutting off our iron from our core, One intriguing option would be to cut off iron to our captured Voxian cities and rush most of the shields on warriors for upgrade. But that's a fair number of turns down the road, since we have huge numbers of WCs that still need upgrading, and we can get a clearer picture of how desperate we are for additional troops by then. Note also the conflict between upgrading units and researching; do we want to suspend research for the duration and forget about the Banking/Astronomy deal with Lego, or do we want to upgrade just enough forces to get momentum on our side (assuming we can in fact get the momentum) and then start pushing our research again?

	21-07-2003 06:35									#62
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Ah, good point in iron to RP. But when the time comes, we should need to look into their economy, as they have a smaller one, and could perhaps gain from being without iron for a turn or 3.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:38									#63
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research: I'd rather not wait to long with research, so no 20 more turns without research. But as long as we delay the deal for astronomy, I think we can get away with renegotiating the ETA a bit. We still have 3 turns before we should go to max research (without wasting gold), if we need more, we should decide now so that we can ask Lego. For the moment, we need them to be our friends, which will most likely stop once we actually take enemy cities instead of swapping with RP.

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:41									#64
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The only way I can find to finish the Great Wall in five turns instead of six is to run Tempest at a two-food deficit during that time. (Asleep, did you find something better?) Still, that's probably worth it if we go for the GW. (We currently have 16 food stored there.) By the way, a university makes a perfect prebuild, and probably also a good fallback if someone surprises us and builds the Great Wall first.

	21-07-2003 06:42									#65
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What is the ETA on Astronomy again... 10 more turns? We'd get another 340g before needing to start (at 8 turns with about even income?).

That would allow us to have 6 more upgrades right (170 + 340)?

	21-07-2003 06:46									#66
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Seven turns for us to research Banking at a small deficit, or eight at a little big larger surplus, at current troop and income levels. I'm not sure which it would end up being if we juggle the slider for exact break-even over the course of the research.

	21-07-2003 06:47									#67
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eta on astro: 10 or 11 turns, according to Vondrack before he played last save. Meaning that as fast as possible we can have an extra 350 gold, if it is one turn later we can have an extra 530. If I count right, but they can offer it to us while we don't have it yet, so we could be strictly speaking one turn behind them...

Should be enough for another 386+350-60~=670 gold at a minimum

DeepO

	21-07-2003 06:49									#68
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The only way I can find to finish the Great Wall in five turns instead of six is to run Tempest at a two-food deficit during that time. (Asleep, did you find something better?) Still, that's probably worth it if we go for the GW. (We currently have 16 food stored there.) By the way, a university makes a perfect prebuild, and probably also a good fallback if someone surprises us and builds the Great Wall first.

Yeah, thats what I found, Tempest with a 2 food deficit. That switch doesn't seem to affect much else other than monsoon I think, Arashi is still on 2 turn pikes. 2 food deficit is fine, as it has 16 food in the granary.

Hmm. It could be that GoW is working on the Great Wall, switch from the G.Library, if someone threatens them or something. Best to leave as palace until turn before completion.

	21-07-2003 06:54									#69
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I'm thinking I'll use a university as a prebuild since the cost is exactly the same. That way it's easier to see how much time is left.

I'm thinking I probably ought to turn the luxury slider up a notch this turn, since the "war" for RP to grab our cats is going to disrupt our lux trades.

	21-07-2003 06:57									#70
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Also, the war weariness for losing (possibly) 2 cities next turn would require the extra Lux. We would get war weariness bonuses for having war declared on us, but not sure if it will be enough to cancel out the bad.

	21-07-2003 06:58									#71
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is it going to disrupt our happiness? They attack us, meaning negative WW for us, plus we gain an extra lux from Lego... it might be enough. When in doubt, turn it up, though

DeepO

	21-07-2003 07:03									#72
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is negative WW cumulative? if both RP and GoW attack us...

DeepO

	21-07-2003 07:05									#73
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO is negative WW cumulative? if both RP and GoW attack us... DeepO

not to mention ND. 3 civs attacking in one turn. da-yum

	21-07-2003 07:14									#74
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I just realized something. We'll also lose the luxuries we're getting from either or both of GoW and ND if they go ahead and attack. (Although we will presumably start geting a new one from Lego.) I think we need to run the luxury slider at 20% (up two notches from where it is now) until we're sure how the situation is going to shake out.

	21-07-2003 07:15									#75
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well, I don't know if it is cumulative. But, is ND going to attack us? They can declare war to stop the lux trade, but otherwise we will probably attack them inside RPs territory first...

DeepO

	21-07-2003 07:17									#76
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO well, I don't know if it is cumulative. But, is ND going to attack us? They can declare war to stop the lux trade, but otherwise we will probably attack them inside RPs territory first... DeepO

They have units adjacent to santiago currently, a pike and an MI. they might as well take an undefended city if they declare war on us.

	21-07-2003 07:18									#77
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I just realized something. We'll also lose the luxuries we're getting from either or both of GoW and ND if they go ahead and attack. (Although we will presumably start geting a new one from Lego.) I think we need to run the luxury slider at 20% (up two notches from where it is now) until we're sure how the situation is going to shake out.

we'll lose 2 luxs but we'll get the dyes from lego, and we could get ivory from RP, so they would cancel each other out, hopefully. nonetheless, I would up it just to be safe

	21-07-2003 07:27									#78
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sorry, forgot about Santiago. Maybe it's best to get some sleep before posting more

DeepO

	21-07-2003 08:20									#79
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Any other thoughts before I finish playing the turn?

	21-07-2003 08:41									#80
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Any other thoughts before I finish playing the turn?

Did you send RP engineering?

We might be holding the turn for a while, I'm not sure on that, sorry, you would have to ask NYE. Problems with RP ratifying it.

edit: of course, duh, you can close the game, but just not send it, sorry.

	21-07-2003 09:54									#81
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If we want to delay sending the turn, would someone like to take responsibility for sending out the save a little before the deadline (4:58 p.m. Apolyton time)? I'll be at work then, but I could send the completed turn to someone when I finish it and have them forward it to ND.

Edit: Thanks for the reminder about Engineering. I sent it, accepted. By the way, ND does not have Engineering yet, contrary to what RP thinks.

	21-07-2003 11:20									#82
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We have a treaty. No need to sit on it any longer. Nathan should send it when he sees this.

	21-07-2003 11:22									#83
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do you have a public announcement ready to go, or are we just going to wing it when ND opens it and wigs out?

	21-07-2003 11:31									#84
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Hmmm, good question. I am going to be off shortly. See what the others think.

It must be low key if we say anything. It might be better to do it privately as well.

	21-07-2003 18:26									#85
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Bah, I missed out on so much action.
I neglected the #1 rule again: never go to sleep.
The GW could be really cool, especially if we end up playing defensive for a long time. What worries me is that cats might try to knock down our walls like Vox did to Inchon, but at least they'd have to get close first.

I can take the responsibility of sending the turn to ND. Just send the file and wait for me to post a confirmation that I got it or to answer your email.

	21-07-2003 18:34									#86
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Btw, we are going to sell the walls in Santiago, right?

	21-07-2003 18:51									#87
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A couple of questions regarding the save:
- Did we upgrade knights?
- Did we pillage Northern roads?
- Can we have screenies?
- and indeed, sell everything in Santiago, we can't defend it anyway. But that's too late, probably, if the turn has been played already...

One question on the GW: if it doubles the effects of walls, does it also protect walls better against cat fire?

DeepO

	21-07-2003 19:09									#88
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I say build the GW.

I'd prolly put more pikes and less cats in the first wave, Nathan.

Disconnecting the north is an interesting idea, but it does require selling an 80 shield improvement (the harbor). That hurts.

Man, having looked at the screenies of RP's "defenses" I hope we can get enough force there in time to save them. It's gonna be close.

-Arrian

	21-07-2003 19:23									#89
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DeepO: good thinking. If it does double the bombardment defense rate of walls as well as the combat defense bonus, we'll have walls with 16 bombardment defense against cats with just 4 attack. That's... just... rad.

	21-07-2003 19:32									#90
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Excellent thought, selling the walls in Santiago. (I hadn't finished playing the turn, by the way. We can't defend the city, and getting rid of the walls makes it harder for ND to make a stand there once we go on the offensive.

I went ahead and upgraded our remaining horsemen to knights. I'm also moving two of our elite WCs back north to replace vets on tile-blocking duty so we can upgrade more vets if we want to (instead of having elites as the only WCs in the right place for upgrading).

For the moment, I'm leaving seven pikes and five MedInfs in Elipolis and bringing five pikes and a MedInf down for our third wave of troops sent to RP's lands. Does that sound like a good mix, or do we want to make more adjustments next turn?

Arrian, the reason it's not more pikes and fewer cats is that I hadn't expected us to send troops across quite so soon and didn't have more pikes in a position to load without slowing galleys down (having to send them out of their way to get them in position to load).