21-07-2003 00:10									#1
	What if thread #1: What if the US had used the Bomb in Europe during WW2? Get a bigger avatar today!

February 12th, 1945: General Dwight Eisenhower hurredly sends the following communication to the Head of the RAF, Arthur Harris:

"I have been ordered by President Roosevelt to fully delay, for an indefinite period, tomorrow's planned bombing of Dresden. Have your men stand down and await further instructions."

Air Marshall Harris was furious, but was partially mollified when, reassured that this decision was due to no bad reflection on his work, he was informed that there were other plans for the city of Dresden "if this war drags on too long."

March 1st, 1945: The world is stunned to learn of the accidental death of the USSR's Marshall Zhukov early last week, due, not to the dangers of war, but to a simple accident of falling down the stairs in the town of ... Taking advantage of the Soviets confusion, Germany began a ferocious counterattack, though nobody truly expected it to do more than delay the inevitable for a few months - if at that. Unfortunately for the city of Dresden, Germany got their delay.

September 2nd, 1945: The third atomic warhead used in WW2 went off today in Dresden Germany, causing the swift end of German resistance. The Americans announcement that such a disaster was coming "saved" over 500,000 lives so that the loss was "only" 75,000. The remnants of the German government officially surrendered on September 3rd, just hours after they murdered Hitler.

Assume that the cold war conditions remained the same (i.e., Berlin was still divided as was Germany (but do you think that Dresden would now be a W. Germany city?))

What would be the short and long-term effects of such an action?

	21-07-2003 00:15									#2
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Btw, it is my intention of doing a series of "What if" threads, starting the next one when the current one dies out. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them.

	21-07-2003 00:20									#3
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There would be another good reason to get hyped for anti-amercanism in germany?

	21-07-2003 00:23									#4
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Would we have enough nukes to bomb Japan if we used them on Germany?

	21-07-2003 00:28									#5
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The scenario calls for just one nuke on Germany, so at the worst, just one would've been dropped on Japan and one on Germany. However, the US was busy producing more bombs and it was only a matter of time before the third A-bomb was produced.

Evidence for third bombs' existence: http://www.danford.net/third.htm

Dresden during 1945: http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWdresden.htm

	21-07-2003 00:29									#6
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if it was 1945 dresden, i can't see mucg being there to be bombed.

	21-07-2003 00:30									#7
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Dino :
The Dresden bomb was the third, after the Japanese bombings. "September 2nd, 1945: The third atomic warhead used in WW2 went off today in Dresden Germany". Though IIRC the US had only 3 bombs at that time, one blew up during the Trinity test and 2 others in Japan.

	21-07-2003 00:30									#8
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However, for the scenario's sake, assume that Japan surrendered "on schedule" and that the US had the third bomb ready. Since, irl, we didn't a-bomb Dresden, were safe in hypothesizing that there was a third bomb.

Edit: I posted two links above for Andy Man and Dino. Dresden was a relatively untouched city in 1945, with over tens of thousands refugees packed in a city that already housed 600,000. And there is plenty of evidence that America could've had a third bomb in Europe by September 2nd, easily.

	21-07-2003 00:38									#9
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Short-term: fanatical Nazi resistors would have had more time to prepare for a protracted guerilla campaign. The Germans may have developed more advanced technology in the intervening period, as well as dedicated kamikaze aircraft. The scramble for German technology and scientists would have been more complicated, rather than the first-come first-served situation which arose.

The Soviets would never have invaded Manchuria, so the Japanese may have been less willing to surrender. Given the presumed Soviet casualties in the German counterattack, Korea may not have been divided.

India, Pakistan and Israel would have come into existence a bit later, with possibly all of them intensifying resistance/terrorism against the British.

American power would be amplified and Soviet would be diminished, since a longer war would probably meant an even higher level of production from America, but more casualties for the Soviets.

	21-07-2003 00:43									#10
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Wasn't Dresden all but destroyed by the US firebombing of civilians?

	21-07-2003 00:48									#11
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We'd have still messed up and liberated France, again.

	21-07-2003 00:52									#12
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I think Sloww has an inferiority complex in regards to France.

	21-07-2003 00:56									#13
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Yeah. That's it.

	21-07-2003 00:58									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Dino : The Dresden bomb was the third, after the Japanese bombings. "September 2nd, 1945: The third atomic warhead used in WW2 went off today in Dresden Germany". Though IIRC the US had only 3 bombs at that time, one blew up during the Trinity test and 2 others in Japan.

hi ,

number 4 and 5 where rolling down the line , ......

have a nice day

	21-07-2003 01:01									#15
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quote: Btw, it is my intention of doing a series of "What if" threads, starting the next one when the current one dies out. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them.

Mmm. I'd like a discussion on what would have happened if Kuomintang had defeated the communists in China in late forties.

Other interesting ones include France hanging on to it's North American holdings (Canada and Louisiana) past 1700s, four more years of Bush I in 1992, not to forget the Mongols raiding Western Europe. Persians conquering Greece after winning in Salamis would be nice, too.

	21-07-2003 01:07									#16
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quote: Yeah. That's it.

It makes perfect sense...

Hitler hated Jews and gays because he really hated himself. Perhaps you are really of French descent and secretly hate yourself SLowwy.

btw, don't misinterpret that as me comparing you to Hitler... I would never do that

	21-07-2003 01:09									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Wasn't Dresden all but destroyed by the US firebombing of civilians?

US and British. After all, it was the head of the RAF that came up with that strategy. It could've been called "Operation London Payback."

But, in real life, the firebombings started a day after the beginning of this scenario, on Feb. 13th, 1945. Before then it was relatively unscathed.

	21-07-2003 01:12									#18
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quote: But, in real life, the firebombings started a day after the beginning of this scenario, on Feb. 13th, 1945. Before then it was relatively unscathed.

If that's the case, then I doubt a nuke would have been used. Considering how valuable the nukes were at the time, they would have gone with the firebombing no matter what.

quote: US and British. After all, it was the head of the RAF that came up with that strategy. It could've been called "Operation London Payback."

It's unfortunate that the Allies proved they were just as evil as the Nazis in terms of targeting civilians. Our goals were just, our methods were not.

	21-07-2003 01:29									#19
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No, Sava, the game isn't to determine if the scenario is plausible, it is to think about what would be the effects of such an action.

	21-07-2003 01:40									#20
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Plausibility is entirely relevant, and must be considered. That's like saying, "what would happen in WW2 if time-travelers came back and gave Japan laser weapons and space vehicles." I suppose it makes for good sci-fi... but I thought this thread was supposed to be somewhat realistic. Sorry.

	21-07-2003 01:42									#21
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The firebombings were indeed a horrific atrocity seen as efficiently essential to German collapse, yet an A-bomb attack was quite out of range on European culture unless desperately needed. I am of the educated opinion that both could have been avoided and Soviet expansion in Eastern Europe stemmed if only a bargain surrender involving German collapse of Nazi governement and acceptance of the usual interm Allied control - with Germany remaining in control of Northern France, to be assimilated by language and loose culture before German self sovereignty was re-estabslished.

Leaving Southern France as the new nation would have been a much better scenario, as the people there are generally of more acceptable attitude, and would have a comparitively thriving economy unburdened by the ignorance of the north half. With the north majorly assimilated into German culture within 20 years, any re-unification sentiment would be near non-existent. Furthermore, future German aggression could just as easily have been stemmed with the inevitable diversion of fear towards the Soviet threat - which could not be contained out of Europe to full measures in any scenario.

Even still, an A-bombing of a smaller German town might have been necessary to instill a fear in them not unlike the post WW2 Japanese... and at about the same general population as Japan in my propsal - Germany would have provided a third major capitalist economic power to compete considerably with the US and Asian Isle, raising the speed and stakes for the cold war reds - and collapsing their efforts of evil much sooner.

War is a terrible thing, and no matter what - healing becomes the end result. That is where I try to come in.

-Doc

	21-07-2003 01:42									#22
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Right now, there is the latest Nazi denial thing going on in Germany which has all to do with wallowing in victemhood for the strategic bombing.

	21-07-2003 01:54									#23
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I agree with Sava that the sceenrio is utterly incredible, but it has nothing to do with arial bombing. To think the Germans had the ground forces to stop thier collapes that way is too far fetched. Not only could they have done didly to slow down the Red Army juggernaught on the Oder (specially since the Soviets had plenty of skilled commanders like KOnev ready to go), but they still had no forces in the west worth a damn, so even if they slowed the Soviets down, I can;t for the life of me think why the US and UK would not have raced in from the west and have been done with it by about the same time as the war came to an end anyway.

	21-07-2003 04:06									#25
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When putting together a theoretical JohnT, you can't leave huge holes. For example, you never mention what happens to US and UK ground forces; If we only assume the changes you spell out, that still puts the US hitting the Elbe and coming just a few miles from Berlin from the west by mid april. Why should we just assume that if the Soviets faced a stalemate, all of a sudden the US and UK do?

I would have been simple to ask: what if the European war was delayed long anough for the first nukes to be used against Germany and not Japan.

	21-07-2003 04:26									#26
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Right now, there is the latest Nazi denial thing going on in Germany which has all to do with wallowing in victemhood for the strategic bombing.

There is a big Difference between Denial of the atrocities of the Nazi-Regime (which of course exists within the Neonazi-Scen in Germany, but also in other countries [including the USA ]) and the thinking that the strategic Bombing of major urban civilian Areas in WW2 was a Atrocity.

As for the topic:
If an A-Bomb had been dropped on Dresden I think Germany anmd the USA would never have developed international relations after WW2 (unlike reality, where the two countries had very good relations, til Bush jr. went to war in Iraq )

And as DanielXY already mentioned, there would also be a much more strong antiamericanism in Germany, especially if those Comnmanders who ordered the bomb to be dropped never had been brought into a court for this atrocity.

Also there would have been a much stronger resistance to nuclear weapons ansd stationing them in Germany among the population of germany (much stronger than it had been in the 80s)

	21-07-2003 07:11									#27
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well, for one, you'd get rid of the kooks who think that the bomb being used on the japanese was racially motivated.

	21-07-2003 07:17									#28
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Instead of moving back the date of the dropping of the bomb and Germany's surrender, why not move forward with the avaiblity of the bomb.

Assume instead of firebombing Dresden on Feb 13th, we atomic bombed it.




If we had atomic bombed Germany, Europe would hate us. So really, nothing would change.

	21-07-2003 07:20									#29
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we had atomic bombed Germany, Europe would hate us.

Why? Germany didn't seem to mind us firebombing them. We killed more people that way than anything the atom bombs we had at the time could have done.

	21-07-2003 07:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We killed more people that way than anything the atom bombs we had at the time could have done.

agreed. Probably No significant difference to history