22-07-2003 11:20									#31
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i knew a thread entitled "Damn taxes..." would attract David before long...

although to make **** clear as i see that he just said he agrees with me on the tax issue... i am not against taxes, David... i am against wasted tax dollars (which aside from the bureaucratic mess and all that does include as far as i'm concerned things like foreign aid and welfare checks [in many cases, though i do see there should be a welfare to work system]) and i am also against the lower middle class bearing the burden of gov't spending... always bothered me... it's like the only thing worse than being poor is being lower middle class cause you live just like poor people and never get any of the benefits of being poor like welfare and all that... and just to top it all off, you got to pay for that ****.

so, David, there should be taxes just lower middle class people can't be the burden bearers when it comes to gov't spending.

	22-07-2003 11:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Mexico has a dirt cheap cost of living though, if I could speak Spanish, it wouldn't be a bad place to live at all.

It's not dirt cheap, unless you want to live dirt poor.

	22-07-2003 11:26									#33
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Well, I won't disturb this thread with serious debate, so carry on

	22-07-2003 11:29									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer so you got to pay Mexican taxes too, mtg?

If I buy stuff here, I have to pay IVA (value added tax, the local version of sales tax), but that's it, other than property taxes. LTEC! in theory has the opposite problem I do, so our tax situation is weird, as we're tax homed in different countries. Same thing if I have a business "here" here, as opposed to in the US but able to work in/on it from here. If I had a real business presence here (registered, etc.) then I'd be subject to Mexican taxes for that, and possibly US taxes for dividends, depending on the type of Mexican business organization.

Some multinational stuff lets you play games and skate for free, but mostly what you get into here, is picking which tax jurisdiction is less a pain in the ass, which generally means the US wins hands down.

	22-07-2003 11:29									#35
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a debate here would be a mess... me saying that only the rich should be paying taxes but also that social welfare programs should be shrunk... you saying there should be no taxes period and no social programs... leftists saying rich people should be taxed like i don't know what and social programs be expanded... and thats not even bringing in any conservatives or moderates into it.

	22-07-2003 11:33									#36
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to borrow from Sloww, i asked the time and you almost told me how to make a watch there, mtg so you basically just got to pay taxes on the overhead

	22-07-2003 11:37									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer what republicans are saying the poor don't pay taxes? i dont see how anyone could say this nor what the political point would be to say this... aint it better for the anti-tax republicans to say that they are going to take off the burden of taxes for the poor? although poor might mean unemployed and welfare mothers and what not... anyone with a job i consider lower middle class.

I think what republicans say is that the poor dont pay federal income tax, just payroll taxes for unemployment and social security, ect.

	22-07-2003 11:38									#38
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If you're not smart, though, you can get tagged in both places. *ouch*

And what Sloww doesn't understand is I tell him how to make a watch so he won't keep buggin' me for what time it is.

	22-07-2003 11:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Some multinational stuff lets you play games and skate for free, but mostly what you get into here, is picking which tax jurisdiction is less a pain in the ass, which generally means the US wins hands down.

I believe this is why so many Japanese companies have created companies in America which are tied to their parent companies in Japan.

	22-07-2003 11:47									#40
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MtG:

he's a texan... they got that whole attitude of do **** quick and dirty and never think of the future... you know how it is.

	22-07-2003 11:53									#41
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With all this anti-welfare thing going on:
I always wondered what you are supposed to live off, when you just lost your job, got no savings, noone is hiring you atm no matter how hard you try, and there is no welfare to help you out for a few month?
I mean the only rational option left (besides living from garbage) is go and steal the money.
I agree welfare should be very low living standard (enough for cheap housing and food, thats it). But essentiell giving people with tough luck no other realistic option than to go for the crime route doesnt seem like such great a concept...

	22-07-2003 11:57									#42
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Albert Speer:
I too hate how the government wastes tax payer money. I think a lot of it has to due with the fact that when people are spending other people's money they are not as carefull with it. Also many congress people use "pork barrel" spending to effectivily buy votes in their home districts and the hunderds of lobblyist that want a piece of government money in exechange for support come election time creates a lot of waste.

	22-07-2003 11:57									#43
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quote: I always wondered what you are supposed to live off, when you just lost your job, got no savings, noone is hiring you atm no matter how hard you try, and there is no welfare to help you out for a few month?

None of this justifies forcing others to help you. Even if you will starve to death, that is not enough justification to force people to give you money.

quote: I mean the only rational option left (besides living from garbage) is go and steal the money.

This is utterly wrong. There could be family members to fall back on, or friends. Churches will always help you out, as will (in the US) places like the YMCA/YWCA, Salvation Army, Red Cross, etc.

And sure, there is probably a case where someone is completely out of luck on all of that stuff. But that's life. Life's a *****, and then you die - but some die sooner than others. That doesn't excuse stealing, though.

	22-07-2003 12:02									#44
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY With all this anti-welfare thing going on: I always wondered what you are supposed to live off, when you just lost your job, got no savings, noone is hiring you atm no matter how hard you try, and there is no welfare to help you out for a few month? I mean the only rational option left (besides living from garbage) is go and steal the money. I agree welfare should be very low living standard (enough for cheap housing and food, thats it). But essentiell giving people with tough luck no other realistic option than to go for the crime route doesnt seem like such great a concept...

Well their are problems to this. This creates a dependency on the government. People will rather live off wellfare and not work. Personaly I would try and help someone that I knew hit hard times and such. BUt in US were having massive buget problems in allmost all the states and federal government. So its kind of hard to help people with welfare when you have no money.

	22-07-2003 12:03									#45
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Hey Dave, would you support an enlightened libertarian/communist society where all people worked for the betterment of all, helped the needy, and so on, without the need for taxes and all those other things you don't like?

	22-07-2003 12:04									#46
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Daniel:

companies are usually forced to give warnings before lay-offs so workers can prepare a little bit... there's also unemployment benefits and all that...

trust me, it aint as bad as you made it out to be. i know people or people's pops who been unemployed for weeks and they still didnt get no welfare

	22-07-2003 12:05									#47
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quote: And sure, there is probably a case where someone is completely out of luck on all of that stuff. But that's life. Life's a *****, and then you die - but some die sooner than others. That doesn't excuse stealing, though.

You tell me, you wont steal when you are about to starve? **** that. Noone cares about any morals when it comes down to your very survival. I somehow doubt you are the holy exception

	22-07-2003 12:09									#48
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY You tell me, you wont steal when you are about to starve? **** that. Noone cares about any morals when it comes down to your very survival. I somehow doubt you are the holy exception

I dont think that things would get that bad if you are willing to work hard. Allthough if you are unable to work that is a problem though.. I would not steal, I want to work to make a living.

	22-07-2003 12:10									#49
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Yes I know its not that hard in most cases. Usually you can get a friend or relative to help you. Or some org. like churches or whatever. But there are still some cases left where there is not much of a choiche...


Hm, how much is the US spending on welfare each year? And how much is that in % from the whole budget?

	22-07-2003 12:13									#50
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY With all this anti-welfare thing going on: I always wondered what you are supposed to live off, when you just lost your job, got no savings, noone is hiring you atm no matter how hard you try, and there is no welfare to help you out for a few month? I mean the only rational option left (besides living from garbage) is go and steal the money. I agree welfare should be very low living standard (enough for cheap housing and food, thats it). But essentiell giving people with tough luck no other realistic option than to go for the crime route doesnt seem like such great a concept...

We have unemployment insurence for that plus there is welfare for those that will submite to the means test but the lazy bums can only be on it for a total of two years in their life time and then they are forced to work. As in the goverment basically sets them up with a low wage job, remember though these are low skill people with low ambition, and tells them to have a nice life. That's the federal system and some states kick in a little more money but over all I think the welfare to work strategy is a good one. We no longer have people living off welfare for a decade or more nor do we have women deliberately getting pragnant just so they can get more welfare. Beleive it or not prior to the mid 1990's this was a problem especially in the black community.

	22-07-2003 12:14									#51
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I think most of welfare cost comes in the from of medicare programs for poor people. Just in the state of California we spend billions on it, especially with all the legal and illegal immigrants from Mexico coming into the state. I am sure the one of the federal governments highest expence is heathcare.

	22-07-2003 12:17									#52
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Daniel:

trust me... it's not as bad as you're thinking. you'd be surprised how even in a place like the city where people don't have that strong of a community, you can still count on people... and you can rummage (or hustle) some money together for food and what not. and that aint even mentioning unemployment benefits, savings, charities, etc.

quote: We no longer have people living off welfare for a decade or more nor do we have women deliberately getting pragnant just so they can get more welfare. Beleive it or not prior to the mid 1990's this was a problem especially in the black community.

what the hell kind of bullshit is this?!

	22-07-2003 12:25									#53
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oh and also, Daniel... a considerable majority of americans are suspicious of welfare. i dont think you can get a majority of americans to ever support european style welfare systems... so thats the other thing to keep in mind... popular opinion.

	22-07-2003 12:25									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer what the hell kind of bullshit is this?!

This was a huge deal in the late 1980's and it was in just about every major paper, journal, and magazine in the country. There were many, not as many as the critics hinted out but still, varified cases of this occuring. In the early 1990's the law was changed so that welfare would not increase if woman had more children while on welfare and they we're provided with free birth control. Now, if she's to stupid to follow the directions then it's her problem.

	22-07-2003 12:29									#55
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wasnt that proven to just be a myth though... i was too young to know about this back then but i can't imagine anyone just pumping out kids to collect more money... i know women probably were on welfare and were kind of loose and got pregnant but not for the intent to collect more.

(and what does collecting more mean? they got to pay for another mouth)

	22-07-2003 12:43									#56
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They'd get an additional amount of money per month per child. I'm trying to remember an article I read 12 or more years ago but they had several crack addicted women who intentially had more children just so they could have more money to spend on drugs. It was disgusting and totally illogical since a child was likely to cost more then the $200 per month welfare increase but never the less people did it.

I'm sure it wasn't in the numbers Republicans were claiming but there were cases where women admited to reporters that this was what they were doing and it became major national news. Eventually it lead to the welfare to work system where people had to work for their welfare checks, their time on welfare was capped (instead of having people who were literally on the dole for their entire life), and they no loner got increases for any children they had while on welfare.

	22-07-2003 12:44									#57
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Having kids for welfare money is stupid but if you give an incentive then you will find a few nuts who will do the illogical. Removing the money incentive removes that temptation.

	22-07-2003 12:46									#58
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We can discuss which is the proper amount of taxes, but discussing the taxes themselves is completely nonsense.

As has already been pointed, taxes are used for all this things that are needed but noone would do because it is too expensive for them or because their benefits are difficult to be seen if you don't pay much attention. Just think how would life be without a government to protect your freedom.

But I agree that taxes should be as low as posible (without compromising the state basic functions of course!), because for most things the use that the individuals do of the money is much efficient that the use that the states does.

	22-07-2003 14:13									#59
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quote: i dont think you can get a majority of americans to ever support european style welfare systems...

Yes, welfare in europe esspecially Germany is way to big. ATM I would be better of living from welfare than I do now from my (trainee) job. And I life rather comfortable. (I get 550,-/m, on welfare I would get rent + 300,- + money for clothes, + money for special stuff like furniture/tv, etc. when I dont have them).

IMHO the ideal welfare system would be like: Free housing in homes. Those homes could be like german style prisons without all the security stuff (Thats not as bad as it sounds, they are rather comfortable: 15qm for 2 persons, 2 beds, a desk with chair, toilet.). You get 100,-/m for food and everything else you want to buy (you can eat from 30,- a month without malenutrition, if you want to eat good healthy stuff 60,- is reasonable). Thats it. The incenitiv to look for job and get out of those homes would be big I supose.

I believe such a system is cheaper than none. Cose in that case crime would go up and you would have to put those poor fellas in real prisons which is much more expensive, not to speak of increasing costs for police and courts....

	22-07-2003 14:42									#60
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how did people survive before welfare?

I have a hunch they worked for a living. yeah maybe some died. But most got off their lazy ass and worked.

The more support you give people, the less they will be inclined to work.