22-07-2003 14:50									#61
	Got spare money?

So you disagree to the logical connection that no welfare results in more crime?

	23-07-2003 04:33									#62
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No welfare does not result in more crime. More crime is a result of the immoral behavior of individuals - that is, crime is a result, in this case, from greed, selfishness, and a disdain for the rights of others.

	23-07-2003 10:45									#63
	Put an end to popups!

quote: that is, crime is a result, in this case, from greed, selfishness, and a disdain for the rights of others.

only half true... you can get a minimum wage job and barely survive (though not comfortably) or you can get into crime and actually live alright (or maybe even damn good). i dont think it's greed or selfishness to want a little more than food and a roof...

	23-07-2003 10:54									#64
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quote: i dont think it's greed or selfishness to want a little more than food and a roof...

You forgot "disdain for the rights of others" which I consider both selfish and greedy.

	23-07-2003 11:02									#65
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Monkspider -

quote: I usually fill out my own taxes, and after donating five dollars to Chickadee Checkoff

Chickadee check-off, I pay $5 for that too. Now they send me pamphlets explaining what great things they're doing with my money. Haven't gotten any pamphlets yet about all the good things they've done for the WWII memorial.

	23-07-2003 13:02									#66
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in fact if more welfare means abusive taxes then it also means more crime as the people try to avoid paying them. Not to mention the "official" crime of the estate stealing the money from the people.

	23-07-2003 13:12									#67
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quote: Originally posted by DanielXY Yes, welfare in europe esspecially Germany is way to big.

German Sozialhilfe is quite strange, especially if you add the extended unemployment benefits that are essentially welfare.

Our system is a good deal more restrictive, but I think social attitudes and stigma play a much larger role. For my state the pretty much undisputed estimate is that in the capital 50 % of those eligable file for welfare. In the rural areas, just about 10 %.

	23-07-2003 17:13									#68
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While in Germany ppl file for Welfare and work illegal ...


Its a devicous Circle really. Wefare is high=>Costs are high=>Taxes are high=> livin' on Welfare (+eventual work) more attractive=> More ppl on welfare etc.

	23-07-2003 17:16									#69
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You think only in Germany?

	23-07-2003 17:23									#70
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I want to know who the hell FICA is and who told him that he could dip into my paycheck?

	23-07-2003 17:24									#71
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Tell me about the Lithunian Problem ;=)

	23-07-2003 19:02									#72
	Re: Damn taxes... Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer I got my first paycheck from mcdonald's today. i got hired on the last day of a pay period so I only got a single day's pay which was good for me to get things in perspective (8 hours rather than getting lost in a mess of 40+ hours)... also, all my previous jobs were under the table so i never had to deal with taxes before... and damn... my raw pay is 47.15 but after 7.03 in taxes, i'm down to 40.12... thank you, democrats for taking my 7 dollars away (an hour and a half of work! all useless!)... 15% of the check right there...

hi ,

praise yourself happy , in most parts of europe it closer the 50% , ......

have a nice day

	23-07-2003 19:25									#73
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"praise yourself happy , in most parts of europe it closer the 50%"

Or in Israel.

	23-07-2003 19:26									#74
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Freedom day celebrated last week IIRC.

Cost of governement and all associated programs and services funded through taxes income sales property etc. required average American to work up until sometime in July without pay to fund the Governments largess.

From here on in its our money so I'm workin OT.

	23-07-2003 20:09									#75
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: thank you, democrats for taking my 7 dollars away (an hour and a half of work! all useless!)... 15% of the check right there...

How is this the Dem's fault? Both parties tax. In fact, more of the blame belongs to Reagan.

The following statistics are from the 1992 Green Book, Congressional Budget Office.

quote: Personal income tax rate for top bracket Years Percent 1945 91% 1946-63 88 1964-81 70 1981-86 50 1988 28 1991 31

quote: Income Growth by Quintile2 Quintile 1950-1978 1979-1993 Lowest 20% 138% -15% 2nd 20% 98 -7 3rd 20% 106 -3 4th 20% 111 5 Highest 20% 99 18

quote: Average hourly earnings, total private industry (1982 dollars)4 1973 $8.55 1980 7.78 1985 7.77 1990 7.52 1993 7.39 Presidents Reagan and Bush froze the minimum wage for 9 years, essentially giving those workers a pay cut each year as inflation bit into their paychecks. In 1992 dollars, the 1963 minimum was $5.74 -- or 35 percent more than it is today.

quote: Effective Family Federal Tax Rate (Income and FICA)1 Year Median Millionaire or Top 1% 1948 5.3% 76.9% 1955 9.1 85.5 1960 12.4 85.5 1965 11.6 66.9 1970 16.1 68.6 1975 20.0 -- 1977 -- 35.5 1980 23.7 31.7 1985 24.4 24.9 1989 24.4 26.7

quote: Total Effective Tax Rates for All Families (Federal Income and Payroll Taxes)2 Quintile 1980 1985 1990 % change 1980-90 Lowest 20% 8.4% 10.6 9.7 16.1% Second 20% 15.7 16.1 16.7 6.0 Third 20% 20.0 19.3 20.3 1.2 Fourth 20% 23.0 21.7 22.5 -2.2 Highest 20% 27.3 24.0 25.8 -5.5 Top 1% 31.8 24.9 27.2 -14.4

This may be too many numbers for some people... but basically... Speer... you can thank 12 years of Reagan and Bush for the higher taxes you are paying.

	23-07-2003 20:28									#76
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Speers: I like to think of it as; I work until about mid-May for the government, the rest of the year is all mine...

	23-07-2003 20:32									#77
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sorry my posts are hard to read... they didn't cut and past too well... I'll make a few charts and get back to this thread.

	23-07-2003 20:42									#78
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quote: you can thank 12 years of Reagan and Bush for the higher taxes you are paying.

Um... seeing how the payroll tax didn't really change too much in the Reagan years, that's quite a dubious claim to make . Oh, but it's Sava.

	23-07-2003 21:10									#79
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quote: Um... seeing how the payroll tax didn't really change too much in the Reagan years, that's quite a dubious claim to make

Are you starting to beleive your own BS?

From 1980 - 1990 (according to the 1992 Green Book, Congressional Budget Office)

Income Level ------ 1980 Tax Rate ----- 1989 Tax Rate

Poorest 20% ------ 8.1% ------------- 9.3% -----15.0% increase
2nd Lowest 20% ---- 15.6% ----------- 15.7% ---- 0.6% increase
Middle 20% -------- 19.8 % ------------ 19.4% ---- 2.0% decrease
2nd highest 20% ---- 22.9% ----------- 22.0% ---- 7.6% decrease
Richest 20% -------- 27.6% ------------ 25.5% ---- 7.6% decrease
Richest 1% --------- 31.9% ------------ 26.2% ---- 15.0% DECREASE

The richest 1% received (on average) a tax cut of $32,864... an amount which is greater than the average income of the poorest 60% of America.

Didn't change that much indeed. Once again the facts aren't on your side Imran.

	23-07-2003 21:30									#80
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hey, albert, filling out the form's easy. odds are you won't make enough to force you to fill out a 1040, so you can get by filing a 1040ez. one page, simple as that.

you can also find numerous free tax filing places on the irs website.

and a lot of wealthier people don't always realize that it's the poor who are more often crippled by the tax burden, no matter how small it is. you have to pay taxes, and you have to pay living expenses. you can't always do both on a small budget.

	23-07-2003 21:36									#81
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Crap, last year I forked over 40K to the Feds. I'm not even going to go into all the other taxing authorities.

That didn't even cover a single smart bomb dropped on Iraq. Seems kind of silly.

	23-07-2003 21:38									#82
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I'm not even going to go into all the other taxing authorities.

That's a good point. My federal tax figures don't even account the increases that state and local governments made in order to compensate for the lack of federal funds they received due to cuts.

	23-07-2003 22:07									#83
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quote: From 1980 - 1990 (according to the 1992 Green Book, Congressional Budget Office) Income Level ------ 1980 Tax Rate ----- 1989 Tax Rate Poorest 20% ------ 8.1% ------------- 9.3% -----15.0% increase 2nd Lowest 20% ---- 15.6% ----------- 15.7% ---- 0.6% increase Middle 20% -------- 19.8 % ------------ 19.4% ---- 2.0% decrease 2nd highest 20% ---- 22.9% ----------- 22.0% ---- 7.6% decrease Richest 20% -------- 27.6% ------------ 25.5% ---- 7.6% decrease Richest 1% --------- 31.9% ------------ 26.2% ---- 15.0% DECREASE The richest 1% received (on average) a tax cut of $32,864... an amount which is greater than the average income of the poorest 60% of America.

How does that even come close to refuting my point that payroll taxes didn't change that much?

	23-07-2003 22:11									#84
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quote: How does that even come close to refuting my point that payroll taxes didn't change that much?

That's a silly subjective statement. I could easily make a statement... "technology hasn't changed that much since 4,000 BC"... I guess you are learning to play with language and manipulate facts just like your Republican idols.

	24-07-2003 00:18									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I'm sorry but increasing the amount of tax you have to pay by 1% is hardly an Earth shaking change.

If the some has to pay 19% instead of 20% is that much of a difference at all? In real money, to the rich, maybe, but in terms of percent of money taken out? Hardly.

If Speer makes $100 a week (which will probably be the case), instead of $8, $9 are taking out. Wow... such a big change. You can argue that it is a bad precedent to set, but you can't argue that it was that significant a change.

And btw, someone had to get the payroll tax that high to begin with... after all, it didn't start in 1980 .

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 24-07-2003 at 00:24

	24-07-2003 04:16									#86
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Sava Your numbers don't account for the fact that in past decades - the 40's through the 70's - those higher tax rates for the rich also had generous deductions which have been eliminated over the last 20 years. So those numbers don't reflect actual taxes paid by anyone, especially people who used to have extensive deductions...

	24-07-2003 04:20									#87
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I like what Rob Black says: I don't mind paying more taxes because it means I'm making more money...

	24-07-2003 04:21									#88
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Oh yeah, I may be wrong, but I understand payroll taxes have really climbed over the last 20-25 years. It wasn't all that long ago that the payroll tax was something like 3 or 4 percent total, now it's over 15. And we know who to primarily thank for that - the Dems and their morally and fiscally bankrupt SS system.

	24-07-2003 04:22									#89
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Isn't Speer going to uni in september and getting some sort of public assistance?

	25-07-2003 01:37									#90
	Got spare money?

KH:

yes i will be attending temple and am getting a scholarship. before it was only half but now that they know i'm going there, they've increased the scholarship to almost everything. i actually don't think i'm getting any public assistance cause i wasn't able to claim independent status (and my mother refused to supply tax forms so i can't say as a dependent, i'm too poor [even though, even if she provided for me, i'd still be able to get public assistance])... so the point is, i should get public assistance but i can't prove my independence or my dependence and my mother's income so i won't get none.