23-07-2003 07:36									#61
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We all can see that Ming's biases are deeply burried an don;t show up at all!

We all have biases, you have shown yours (HOW dare anyone attack the republican party!!!) and I have shown mine. I have also moved on.

And yes, influence does matter, hence the term, "influence".

	23-07-2003 07:38									#62
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We all can see that Ming's biases are deeply burried an don;t show up at all! We all have biases, you have shown yours (HOW dare anyone attack the republican party!!!) and I have shown mine. I have also moved on. And yes, influence does matter, hence the term, "influence".

You miss his point -- for the 10th time.

You can criticize legitimate flaws among Republicans -- but you shouldn't blanket all Republicans as if they are ideological clones.

	23-07-2003 07:46									#63
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And when did I say all republicans are anything? Please quote freely.

What I did say si that what Ming terms "the fringe" is not as far form the centers of power of the republican party as they are form the center of power of the dmeocratic party.

	23-07-2003 07:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GePap We all have biases, you have shown yours (HOW dare anyone attack the republican party!!!) and I have shown mine. I have also moved on.

You aren't listening... I never said anything like that... I stated that all parties have hardcore morons that attack others... so you shouldn't just pick on any party, because all do it...

Which is far different than your biased POV that's it's ok for one and not another...

Enjoy...

	23-07-2003 07:51									#65
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quote: Which is far different than your biased POV that's it's ok for one and not another...

And I said this..? (Again, as I told MrFun, feel free to quote me from the thread.)

To repaet yet again: the difference is that those that you call "the fringe" are closer to the decision makers in the epublican party than Dem, or at the minimum, have a much wider audience among the groups that votes for one party or the other.

	23-07-2003 07:52									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap It's not a matter of pigheadedness: it is a matter that it is becoming all to abhorently common to see conservatives attack liberals as unpatriotic in way liberals DO NOT attack conservatives, and everyone just say "oh, trogledites will be trogledites".

Here is one that is close.

You say that liberals do not attack conservatives as unpatriotic.

I dare say that if some Democrats WERE in the position to do so, they would do the same attacks in the name of -- guess what -- POLITICS.

You seem to claim that if a person is liberal, they would hold themselves to higher standards rather than bend to using the same low-down tactics that some conservatives do.

	23-07-2003 07:54									#67
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quote: Originally posted by GePap [To repaet yet again: the difference is that those that you call "the fringe" are closer to the decision makers in the epublican party than Dem, or at the minimum, have a much wider audience among the groups that votes for one party or the other.

So again... because you don't seem to be listening...

SO WHAT. Just because somebody has more influence doesn't make it any more right or wrong.

IT'S WRONG PERIOD... NO MATTER WHO DOES IT, and no matter HOW MUCH INFLUENCE THEY HAVE.

You seem to be taking the postion that it's ok to do it if you have less influence.

IT'S WRONG... PERIOD.

	23-07-2003 08:01									#68
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quote: What is it that fills so many right wing conservatives with hate for anyone and anything which is different from their own narrow political beliefs?

Poly has its fair share of left wingers who love to say that all Republicans are evil. (They use that very word: evil. Not "unpatriotic" or "booger-faced" or whatever, but "evil.")

	23-07-2003 08:02									#69
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Here is one that is close. You say that liberals do not attack conservatives as unpatriotic. I dare say that if some Democrats WERE in the position to do so, they would do the same attacks in the name of -- guess what -- POLITICS. You seem to claim that if a person is liberal, they would hold themselves to higher standards rather than bend to using the same low-down tactics that some conservatives do.

Yes, i do say that most liberals don;t attack conservatives as being anti-patriotic just by being conservatives, and no, you chose to assume I was implying a double stardard. The point, which is what Oerdin tries to make, is that many conservatives whish to label the entire liberal side as inhernetly unpatriotic, and no, liberals are nowhere near as common to make the claim that being conservative equals being unpatriotic.

That is the difference.

	23-07-2003 08:03									#70
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Poly has its fair share of left wingers who love to say that all Republicans are evil. (They use that very word: evil. Not "unpatriotic" or "booger-faced" or whatever, but "evil.")

So true... So true... But that seems to be ok by GePap's standards since the liberals and Dems don't have any influence right now...

	23-07-2003 08:04									#71
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quote: liberals are nowhere near as common to make the claim that being conservative equals being unpatriotic.

I'd rather be called 'unpatriotic' rather than being called, as I am called, 'evil'.

	23-07-2003 08:05									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Ming So again... because you don't seem to be listening... SO WHAT. Just because somebody has more influence doesn't make it any more right or wrong. IT'S WRONG PERIOD... NO MATTER WHO DOES IT, and no matter HOW MUCH INFLUENCE THEY HAVE. You seem to be taking the postion that it's ok to do it if you have less influence. IT'S WRONG... PERIOD.

You infer "it is OK" when I say "it is different". That seems a bit dubious to me: are those two things equal to you?

	23-07-2003 08:07									#73
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Poly has its fair share of left wingers who love to say that all Republicans are evil. (They use that very word: evil. Not "unpatriotic" or "booger-faced" or whatever, but "evil.")

And we were not talking about Poly.

quote: So true... So true... But that seems to be ok by GePap's standards since the liberals and Dems don't have any influence right now...

You have a weird dictionary, where "different" equate to OK. You may need to buy a new one.

quote: I'd rather be called 'unpatriotic' rather than being called, as I am, 'evil'.

BUt you are evil Imran

	23-07-2003 08:08									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I'd rather be called 'unpatriotic' rather than being called, as I am called, 'evil'.

Embrace it. I have.

* DinoDoc is a proud Apolyton Evil Capitalist Conservative member

	23-07-2003 08:09									#75
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I remember reading some piece in which the author laid out the basic belief system that political debate in American is based on: conservatives think liberals are stupid and liberals think conservatives are evil. This may be shifting somewhat, but I think it is still more true than not. Wish I could remember who wrote the article, as it was quite good.

	23-07-2003 08:09									#76
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You infer "it is OK" when I say "it is different". That seems a bit dubious to me: are those two things equal to you?

Well... then, what does "it is different" mean to you?

Are you saying that one is less bad? The it is less bad for insults if you have less influence.

Let me be perfectly clear. ANYBODY THAT DOES IT IS POND SCUM. No matter whether you have influence or not... IT'S EQUALLY BAD.

How's that...

Now... please explain how it is different, and why different in your mind is better or worse. Because it seems like your saying that it's not as bad when your out of influence group does it... which may not mean that you say it's OK, but it does mean that you don't disapprove of it as much...

HAVE FUN.

	23-07-2003 08:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Gepap And we were not talking about Poly

Oerdin was talking about right wingers on "another forum." I was referring to left wingers who are right under our noses.

	23-07-2003 08:11									#78
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This thread can wrap around my ass.

	23-07-2003 08:14									#79
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Wutang!

	23-07-2003 08:18									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Ming HAVE FUN.

The spread of this sort of talk form the far right is one of the leading factors in the breaking down of politics in this country. American democracy is built on the notion of compremise. Demonization of the "other" by definition means no compromise, for how can you compromise with evil?

Now, the issue of influence matters because the closer the fring is to the power making core of the party, the more it can pass on its "don;t comprimise with evil" stance unto the party. Over the last 8 years, we have seen a republican leadership in the House at least less and less willing to debate anything, make any compromise, do anything but ram what is sees fit through, which only leads to a greater breakdown of the system, becuas einvariably Dems. will counteract such actions with smilira actions of thier own (that isn't adult, but that is the way it is).

So yes, there is a difference between what someone like Moore says and what someone like Rush says, cause Rush and his buddies can moblize votes or money, and thus pols. are more apt to act to please him. Hence, what Rush says has rgeater impact on policy than what Moore says, and the influence is corrosive to a working Congress and political culture in the country.

	23-07-2003 08:20									#81
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Oerdin was talking about right wingers on "another forum." I was referring to left wingers who are right under our noses.

And we have right wingers here too? So? Oerdin is relatively right in this forum..what would a forum by like which paints him as some unpatriotic person?

	23-07-2003 08:21									#82
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quote: what would a forum by like which paints him as some unpatriotic person?

Truly American?

	23-07-2003 08:22									#83
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quote: Originally posted by GePap what would a forum by like which paints him as some unpatriotic person?

You never went to Newsmax when we "visited" ( ) them, did you?

	23-07-2003 08:23									#84
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No, I didn't.

	23-07-2003 08:24									#85
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So using your own example... both do it. Your complaint seems to be that since they have influence, it makes more of a difference. yet as you even state, dems do the same thing.

So there really is no difference. All parties have their pond scum who aren't making things easier...

And all I'm saying is... to start a thread accusing one party of something all other parties is doing is just hypicrictal at best... Why not start a thread that blames everybody instead of just one of the guilty.

You seem to agree... you seem to think it's worse because "somebody" else is doing it.

But wake up and smell the coffee... it's bad no matter who is doing it. No worse because of influence or no influence... Still the same... Still all pond scum.

NO DIFFERENCE.

	23-07-2003 08:27									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Some Republicans are off the deep edge... Some Democrats are even worse... Again... your point...

In my first point I acknowledge his to be true and you are repeating what I have already said. That's my point.

	23-07-2003 08:27									#87
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And we have right wingers here too? So? Oerdin is relatively right in this forum..what would a forum by like which paints him as some unpatriotic person?

I guess the same when the libs here call the conservatives evil.

Let's see... evil... unpatriotic... both seem equally distasteful to me... or are you saying one is better than the other?

	23-07-2003 08:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by GePap The spread of this sort of talk form the far right is one of the leading factors in the breaking down of politics in this country. American democracy is built on the notion of compremise. Demonization of the "other" by definition means no compromise, for how can you compromise with evil?

Good points all GePap Although we'll have to remember when the Dems get in power and the Moores and Hollywood types of the world continue their left agendas that the Dems will be just as evil. As Ming suggests just because one side is now more effective at propgandizing doesn't mean they are more devisive/evil just simply more effective at sowing dissent.

I do however take issue with your characterization that the core left is "looking to a grander future" whilst the core right is "looking to preserve what it can today."

Too simplistic and IMHO tainted by your own political leanings. If anything, I would suggest both right and left are tasked with "building a grander future" it simply comes down to the best means to accomplish that and your definition of a brighter tomorrow.

	23-07-2003 08:29									#89
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Yes, there is a difference. Saying Darn and **** are both forms of expressing disleasure, but there is a difference between them.

quote: You seem to agree... you seem to think it's worse because "somebody" else is doing it.

Wrong: I would complai just as much if the firng from the left had as much power in destroying the political culture of the US as the fring of the right. They don't have as much power to do it.

	23-07-2003 08:34									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Too simplistic and IMHO tainted by your own political leanings. If anything, I would suggest both right and left are tasked with "building a grander future" it simply comes down to the best means to accomplish that and your definition of a brighter tomorrow.

I never hear old fashioned conservatives peak of building a grander future. I would say that in general, Conservatives have a dim view of the abilities of man, so that anyone who gets the view that they can "create" new institutions and fomrs out of thin air and make the world a better place thus will fail. Why perhaps they like the market so much: the market may lead to a better future, but by accident, by slow progress without direction, and hence, free of the corruption man may bring to the table with some grandiose project.

nowm every so often you get people like neo-cons, who still have their early liberals dreams of change by policy of man (most neo-cons begin as liebrals) but change their view of what the aimsn should be.