23-07-2003 09:39									#121
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Let's put it this way: I'd see nothing wrong with a pol saying that members of the other party are pigheaded. I would see something wrong with calling them disloyal.

They're both obviously partisan comments which stereotype the opposition, but that's not a problem. That's politics as usual. One of them is an accusation of a serious moral and ethical breach. The other one isn't...

	23-07-2003 09:40									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Ming But, I will nail your ass on the thread title. All your fine words are true, but you went out of your way to attack all Republicans when you made that title.

Alright, then please change the thread title so as to hide the evidence of my previous transgression.

	23-07-2003 09:40									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Come on GePap, Too much baiting on this one. Think opportunity and not entitlement. Handup not handout. Faith in oneself and not the government.

All of which are empty catchphrases After all, IN America, isn't the government made by the people, for the people? And what about the entitlement to opportunity?

The trust of Man is a big difference between conservatives and liberals. Individuals are transiatory, many die far before a "new future" has come into being. So how can trust in the individual mean making a batter future?

	23-07-2003 09:45									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Nope, The insults thrown out in your above example are extreme for the cons and mild for the libs. Yet as is so often pointed out in this and other threads the name calling that gets bandied around on both sides is roughly equivalent and more importantly it is a set of stereotypes that does injustice to a whole category of people. Bush is an idiot. Bush is a criminal. Trent Lott is a racist etc. etc. etc. from the left. (Feel free to substitute the word Republican in place of any above named leader) Hillary is a traitor. Daschle doesn't have a backbone. etc. etc. etc. (Feel free to subtitute the word Democrat in place of any above named leader). Its all a game about who can more effectively discredit the other and it is becoming more about the game and less about governing every day. Partisnaship needs to go. We need an effective 3rd party that more effectively represents the lukewarm centrists.

Huh?

You're mangling two separate points here. One is that attacks on individuals are different than attacks on groups. I, of course, agree with this. The other is the fact that certain (but not all) attacks on groups (most especially political groups) must be accepted as part of partisan politics, the system which has been the cornerstone of Western democracy for 200 years. You can't run a competitive political system based around the party unless the parties are allowed to say bad things about each other. You can, however, run it without the level of insult displayed by calling the opposing side traitors.

	23-07-2003 09:51									#125
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The difference is Ogie is this: You mention the names of individuals, but the issue here is parties or ideological leanings.

A republican can very well say "Bush is an idiot, a crminal, or Trent Lott is a racist". To assume that only a Dem. would say so is incorrect.

But can a Dem. say "All Dems. are anti-American scum!"? How could they then self-categorize as Dems? (and no, funny litte "what if they are" respoense will not be answered)

I agree that in the 60's and 70's the left was more vocal and that they acted similarly on the airwaves, but the left-leaning activists on the ground did not have the same access to the political leadership of the times as the fringers of the conservaitves have to the power centers of the Republican party today. After all, would we call Tom Delay part of the fringe, or not? And he is the most powerfull man in the House. Maybe people here want to try, but has someone on the left fringe ever held such a position of power on the Dems? And by fringe I don;t mean simply vocal: Orin Hatch for example is vocally conservative but he is not fringe. As much as people want to demonize Ted Kennedy, he is not fringe. Sharpton is fringe, but does anyont think if the Dems. had power soemone like Sharpton would be in the same position as Delay?

	23-07-2003 09:55									#126
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I see as usual, you are attempting to evade the original issue GePap.

Your bias makes you feel that only the left has the best interest of the country at heart. In so stating that core left values are for making a better future. (Defacto premise is that only the left has the best interests for the future in mind.)

You tarred the right by stating that core right values are (paraphrasing) status quo. (defacto premise is that the right is short sided and not fit too lead for the future)

Both right and left have a goal of prosperity and betterment of the whole. The means to accomplish it are different in that cons believe it lies in the hands of individuals and small groups to better themselves and not rely on governmental influence to do so. Whilst left beleives that it is a fundamental responsibility of the government.

Regardless I agree with your original statement that the devisiveness of the current political arena is harmful, but still take exception to your characterization of core left vs. core right.

	23-07-2003 09:59									#127
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Huh? You're mangling two separate points here. One is that attacks on individuals are different than attacks on groups. I, of course, agree with this. The other is the fact that certain (but not all) attacks on groups (most especially political groups) must be accepted as part of partisan politics, the system which has been the cornerstone of Western democracy for 200 years. You can't run a competitive political system based around the party unless the parties are allowed to say bad things about each other. You can, however, run it without the level of insult displayed by calling the opposing side traitors.

So its perfectly fair to call them baby killers and racists. OK I'll go with that.

	23-07-2003 10:03									#128
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Actually Ogie, you are the one who "inferred" things that I never wrote. let me clue you in: I mean what I write, which means that to "infer" anything into it is 100% wrong. If I mean it, I write it.

I do think the Right does want to make a better place (though I disgaree with their ideas), but they do not have faith that man throught reason can do it, becuase conservatism does not place a great value on the ability of reason to, by itself, solve the problems. That is why they preffer institutions, speically ones they see as "natural", such as God and religions, The Family (hence the need to 'defend the family'), and Country.

	23-07-2003 10:03									#129
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Where did I say it was okay to call Republicans baby killers and racists?

Get some reading skills. I said the exact opposite.

To phrase it in simpler language:

1) I said it was okay to call individuals really bad things based on their own actions

2) I said it was unacceptable to call a similarly-minded group of people (such as, say, the Republican Party) really bad things (except in, say, extreme situations such as with the Nazi party, the KKK etc.)

3) I said it was okay to aim mild insults (such as pigheaded, impractical etc.) at the general political opposition since that is part of the foundation of party politics.

	23-07-2003 10:08									#130
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KH,

I'm fine with that. My point simply was (as others have stated) the boorish behavior is not the province of conservatives alone. And IMO is equal in ferocity for both left and right factions. And for the record somethign I'm sick of.

Thanks for making it readable for a poor unenlightened conservative.

	23-07-2003 10:14									#131
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You'd be unenlightened whether or not you were conservative.

What's up with delaware, anyway?

I drove through it for 10 miles and was charged 6$ in tolls.

	23-07-2003 10:20									#132
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quote: Originally posted by GePap [bold]I think the "core conservative mindset", which is "we are defending what is right, how things should be now" is more prone to then attack its enemies as "evil" than the "core liberal mindset" which is "we are tryin to create a better tommorrow, aiming for what is best": people who don;t see the better tommorrow are to be seen as idiots and fools who are shortsighted. Now, this is a generalization: plenty of liberals are prone to assauting conservatives as nazi racists kilers, but they are more of a fring than the conservatives who call liberals evil commie murderers.[/bold]

GePap

How could I have ever read anything into this? Sorry if I screwed up the defacto premises but it seems pretty clear what you were trying to say (at least to me).

Care to clarify?

	23-07-2003 10:21									#133
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You'd be unenlightened whether or not you were conservative. What's up with delaware, anyway? I drove through it for 10 miles and was charged 6$ in tolls.

Only charged if your a helpless hopeless lib.

	23-07-2003 10:24									#134
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I went through two frigging tollbooths in the space of 5 miles along one road.

	23-07-2003 10:25									#135
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I don't remember ever driving though Deleware before. I did go from SC to MS once but I was young and wasn't driving so I doubt I ever saw that state.

	23-07-2003 10:26									#136
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There's not much to see. The tollbooths are the only way they've figured out of getting people to stop in their state...

	23-07-2003 10:28									#137
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It can't be as bad as New Jersey can it?

	23-07-2003 10:32									#138
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They're in definite competition. On the one hand Delaware really does give the impression of simply being "in the way" as it intersects I-95 for such a brief period, whereas New Jersey has a law prohibiting self-service at gas stations for safety reasons, giving you a fairly accurate assessment of the general intelligence of its population.

	23-07-2003 10:36									#139
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got to love those Jerseyians.

Oregon has a law against self service gas stations but that dates back to the recession of 1981. The politicians were disperate to create jobs so they outlawed self serve gas and people in Oregon have been paying through the nose for gas ever since.

	23-07-2003 11:13									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Now I know that this trait is not confined to jusr Republicans and that ignorant people come in all shapes and sizes but I have noticed a worry sum pattern which seems to be deeply embedded in the neo-con mind. I'm assuming it's just the people who listen to to much Rush Limbaugh and Mike Regan but why on Earth do this pigheaded idiots have to insist that everyone who isn't a Republican hates America and is secretly trying to destroy democracy? Taken at face value everyone can see what true idiots these people are but still this gets my dander up. Like today I was spending time at another web forum which I shall not name, but suffice it to say it is a rather right wing set of forums, when the owner of the forums said something like Any Democrat who says he loves America is lieing. Now, being a Democrat I of course became angry at this statement and attempted to reason with him by pointing out his hasty generalization. What resulted was a big flame war after which I decided to leave the forum rather then continue to be around such ignorance. What is it that fills so many right wing conservatives with hate for anyone and anything which is different from their own narrow political beliefs? I expect this type of illogical and unthought out behavior from people who's forum motto is "F*ck France" but still it irritates me. Has anyone else had this problem?

don't let yourself get riled up by trolls

case closed!

	23-07-2003 12:58									#141
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I'm over it but one thing is clear. I will never bother with that P.O.S. forum again.

	23-07-2003 19:02									#142
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I went through two frigging tollbooths in the space of 5 miles along one road.

Helpless and most likely lost. IIRC, there is but one toll in DE at the DE/Maryland border. (I moved last year to GA and have been too lazy to change my location in profile). Most people in DE get off before the exit and take side roads to the next exit and reenter. The other toll you mention is most likely the bridge toll for either Jersey or bridge toll at Havre DeGrace in Maryland.

If going southbound I95 you'll hit the Jersey toll across the DE memorial bridge. North bound is free unless they've changed it.

In any event, need those tolls if only to make sure all the out of state shoppers (no sales tax) pour money back into the system for those massive left programs.

	23-07-2003 19:04									#143
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse They're in definite competition. On the one hand Delaware really does give the impression of simply being "in the way" as it intersects I-95 for such a brief period, whereas New Jersey has a law prohibiting self-service at gas stations for safety reasons, giving you a fairly accurate assessment of the general intelligence of its population.

Actually the reason for the law derives from safety and environmental/health reasons and is indicative of the level of paranoia that has been instilled and legislated. Thank goodness for uninformed law makers.

	23-07-2003 19:13									#144
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And it creates jobs... in Liberal Jersey it doesn't matter what's efficient, as long as some shlub gets a job pumping gas

	23-07-2003 19:48									#145
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I agree Oerdin... I was banned from another forum (which is a self-proclaimed liberal/progressive site) because I was critical of Bill Clinton. There are dumbasses everywhere.

	23-07-2003 20:00									#146
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I look at both parties and see so much unnecessary bickering and name calling and hatred. That is not what government is supposed to be is it?

You have two parties that are diametrically opposed to one another and the constantly fueding over this policy or that bill. Then you have the intelligentia of the country taking their sides. Finally the rest of the mindless cattle go about their daily lives oblivious to what is going on around them. I say to myself what on earth is happening to this country? How much longer can it continue like this?

	23-07-2003 20:39									#147
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quote: I agree Oerdin... I was banned from another forum (which is a self-proclaimed liberal/progressive site) because I was critical of Bill Clinton. There are dumbasses everywhere

You were banned from a site

You actually were critical, and didn't just troll the board

Sava, never!

---

Here's the deal, IMO

I have, for a little while yet, believed that politicians (rep, dem) are just a bunch of professional trolls and flamers that have no worth... except that they care enough to work in public service, at least at some leve.

Power corrupts, and greed sets in. The pigheadedness that is being seen in the republicans I think is an honest and accurate observation, as they are in power and control... As a republican I am, and have been, shocked by the behavior of many of my party members, but I am not ashamed to still be called a Republican as the ideals are still there.

One can act the fool without really being one; Sava is a good example.

	23-07-2003 22:09									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Sava I agree Oerdin... I was banned from another forum (which is a self-proclaimed liberal/progressive site) because I was critical of Bill Clinton. There are dumbasses everywhere.

Thanks Sava. Yep, there are dumb asses every where but certain places have more dumb asses then other places. That's why I'm going to be sticking to the more open minded places like 'poly.

	23-07-2003 22:14									#149
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quote: Thanks Sava. Yep, there are dumb asses every where but certain places have more dumb asses then other places. That's why I'm going to be sticking to the more open minded places like 'poly

Yeah... after much experience with online forums, 'Poly has proved time and time again to be, on average, a collection of more intelligent people.

	23-07-2003 22:47									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe GePap How could I have ever read anything into this? Sorry if I screwed up the defacto premises but it seems pretty clear what you were trying to say (at least to me). Care to clarify?

Yes.

"Core conservatism" is far more likely to believe in absolutes, like God. Now, how do you see someone who opposes your views strongly? In a world of absolutes, what do you call and opponent of Good?

Now, lets say you see a world where what rules is Reason (a human creation, and thus not absolute). What can you say of somoene who opposes your view strongly? In a subjecitve world, what do you call the opponents of Reason?

As I said, these are charicatures, but I do think it explain somehting that is more common among the right than the left, that is too say, to label all enemies of your position as morally corrupt. (to those nitpickers: more common does not mean exclusive to: if I need to explain why, then you have a problem)