25-07-2003 18:27									#121
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Really? I'm actually paid by the government to troll some yanks on internet fora...

You certainly earn your pay.

	25-07-2003 18:46									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hey let's chill everyone. I don't like to see my threads get threadjacked. Let's bash the UN and not each other. Ok?

I agree. Have you tried to visit the UN quarters at Geneva? The entrance is terrible bad indicated! If they do everything the same tame they organize the touristic visits inside the quarters, and they treat everyone like the tourist that go inside (yes, I finally was able to enter, but in a different day) then there is no doubt that the UN is completely disorganized!

	25-07-2003 18:49									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin Hersh: Remember the last three foiled plots were in Europe. One to blow up the Vatican, one to let poison gas go in the London subway, and another to attack NATO ships in Gibraltor. Don't get to smug; these thugs want to destroy every nonfundamentalist muslim state out there including Austria.

AND they are supporting every organization that goes against the established order. The only thing that all of them have in common is that they hate what the US and New Europe represent. They will target ANY country or organization that is disturbing them.

(I love to say "New Europe". I was getting tired of living in "the old continent" )

	25-07-2003 18:56									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy This is perhaps the most worrying part of the UN bashers. They're serious about quitting, about every state out for it's own again, with no forum for debate and decision making outside of the Bilderberg group.

Of course I am serious about quiting. When you don't trust in an organization or a person, you cannot give credit to what they do, or even follow their orders. But what you don't realize is that this "UN bashing" is not something for fun. I didn't wake up one day and said "mmm, today I am in the mood for bashing the UN". I formed my (bad) opinion about the UN based in all the facts I know about that organization. For example: I know that basque terrorists are coward murderers, but the UN gives them a room in their Geneva quarters. Can this reinforce my trust in UN? Of course not! On the contrary, this is another piece of evidence that the UN has only one objective: To destroy the Free World

	25-07-2003 20:10									#125
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Reading all of this, Lonestar's Your Very Own Imperial Stardestoyer thread is looking better all the time.

	25-07-2003 22:05									#126
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Hmm... "Let's have a war on Iraq" "For what reason and purpose?" "Uhm... don't know. But I want to kick some ass" "Ah... ok" Yeah, process over content.

I recall your opposition to the war being on the basis of us not having UN approval. You did not make the argument that SH had abided with the cease-fire, etc.

The comment about process has to do with my experience doing a merger and reorg in a European conglomerate. I really saw this.

	25-07-2003 22:08									#127
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Roland, you've always said for a long time that you have no love for the US. In fact, you have some wierd obsession about it. Lately, you are equating Iraq and the US and Bush and Hussein. You are off the deep end. We are definitely better served not catering to people like you. You've already backed off from your plan to go after Bush the fascist. So, you want to disassociate yourself from the US. And not be in the cross-fire. This is nothing new for you or for Austria. HAve fun. But don't expect me to pay much attention to your snide little remarks in the future.

	25-07-2003 22:21									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman Sure you need an 'actual military' sometimes, but peacekeepers are also necessary, and are certainly not useless, as you suggested earlier in this thread. The UN can call on the US and other countries with powerful militaries to help if they need it. As for patrolling the streets, you seem to suggest that the best approach to global security is to let things deteriorate. I disagree. China will probably get Taiwan back diplomatically. Why would they go to the trouble of invading it? Israel can more than protect itself, thanks in part to the French giving them nukes, and it engages in ethnic cleansing of it's own. As for NK, the arsenal of the UN consists of weapons inspectors, treaties, embargoes and so on. They've not been very effective so far, but neither has American power. There's no way to tell how many are needed to do the job. There are also other considerations, such as the 'cool factor' and giving jobs to defense contractors. Anyway, how would the world become more secure if America had 20 super-carriers? Sure, America would be more secure, but the world would not.

I'm gna mention this for the third and final time and I hope u grasp it this time. cuz its really causing u to argue on complete tangents.

disagreeing with american policy does not diminish its role in global security.

this is very important, please understand this. cuz I simply am not going to continue to respond to u bashing american policy when it is all but an irrelevant point.

	25-07-2003 22:59									#129
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more stupid

	25-07-2003 23:08									#130
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quote: Originally posted by TCO . The comment about process has to do with my experience doing a merger and reorg in a European conglomerate. I really saw this.

AH! That explains you point of view.

I can see where your coming from now - don't know about rest of Europe but I'd be first to admit UK business admin resembles something from the middle ages for correct protocol etc.

	26-07-2003 02:03									#131
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon I'm gna mention this for the third and final time and I hope u grasp it this time. cuz its really causing u to argue on complete tangents. disagreeing with american policy does not diminish its role in global security. this is very important, please understand this. cuz I simply am not going to continue to respond to u bashing american policy when it is all but an irrelevant point.

The tangents were of your making, I was simply replying to them. If you don't want me to examine your examples, then don't bring them up.

Regardless of whether I disagree with America's policies or not, it's role in global security is not so obvious as you make it out. Mentioning NK, Taiwan, israel, carriers, may to you seem like ample proof of America's gigantic role in world security, but to me and other people these simplistic examples prove nothing of the sort. Furthermore, you can't demonstrate that the UN is useless purely by giving examples of what America has done, since UN actions and US actions are not mutually exclusive. Believe it or not, but sometimes the US and the UN work together. A successful US action may also be a successful UN action.

Now, to you, I can reply "disagreeing with United Nations policy does not diminish it's role in world security".

	26-07-2003 02:27									#132
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The tangents were of your making, I was simply replying to them. If you don't want me to examine your examples, then don't bring them up. Regardless of whether I disagree with America's policies or not, it's role in global security is not so obvious as you make it out. Mentioning NK, Taiwan, israel, carriers, may to you seem like ample proof of America's gigantic role in world security, but to me and other people these simplistic examples prove nothing of the sort. Furthermore, you can't demonstrate that the UN is useless purely by giving examples of what America has done, since UN actions and US actions are not mutually exclusive. Believe it or not, but sometimes the US and the UN work together. A successful US action may also be a successful UN action. Now, to you, I can reply "disagreeing with United Nations policy does not diminish it's role in world security".

ur absolutely right. sometimes the UN has to call the big dog in. and sometimes the US is nice and comes. I never said the UN is useless. but someone stated that their role in global security was vital, and its just not. I think ur trying to extrapolate this disagreement into something of much more massive in scope than it is. which is typical when ppl w/ bias' get worked up.

	26-07-2003 02:33									#133
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quote: Originally posted by flash9286 more stupid

Technically you can use either more stupid or stupider. I looked it up.

	26-07-2003 04:53									#134
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quote: Originally posted by TCO Lately, you are equating Iraq and the US and Bush and Hussein.

Not quite. I'm happy Uday and Qusay were biting the dust. For the Bush regime, I'd prefer a regular trial for their criminal war.

	26-07-2003 04:57									#135
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler For the Bush regime, I'd prefer a regular trial for their criminal war.

On what charge and on what authority?

	26-07-2003 05:02									#136
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has anyone read the geneva convention.

is going to war a war crime? I don't know seems kinda funny.

	26-07-2003 05:05									#137
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc On what charge and on what authority?

Starting an unjstified war of aggression. Remember Nürnberg and Tokyo?

	26-07-2003 05:07									#138
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Remember Nürnberg and Tokyo?

Yes. That's why I was curious who you thought would carry out this trial of yours.

Of course we both know those trials were victors justice anyway.

	26-07-2003 05:07									#139
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Starting an unjstified war of aggression. Remember Nürnberg and Tokyo?

wow thats weak. it'd be easily asserted in any sane court that disagreeing w/ the justification doesn't mean something lacks justification.

I still don't think my question is answered though. if thats literally what it sez in the document then thats pathetic writing.

	26-07-2003 05:11									#140
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"That's why I was curious who you thought would carry out this trial of yours."

Universal jurisdiction is a nice thing. After leaving office, Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the whole gang are open to prosecution from Albania to Vietnam. There's also maybe 30 years to get the bastards. Many things can happen...

"it'd be easily asserted in any sane court that disagreeing w/ the justification doesn't mean something lacks justification."

That's not the issue. The issue is that there is no justification whatsoever.

	26-07-2003 05:16									#141
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Universal jurisdiction is a nice thing. After leaving office, Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the whole gang are open to prosecution from Albania to Vietnam. There's also maybe 30 years to get the bastards. Many things can happen...

Well snap to it then! You already have a potential test case for the ability to put an ex-American President on trial in the form of Bill Clinton. You can even use the same charge you plan on using with Bush. Lazy Eurocoms!

	26-07-2003 05:16									#142
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "That's why I was curious who you thought would carry out this trial of yours." Universal jurisdiction is a nice thing. After leaving office, Bush, Blair, Rumsfeld, Cheney and the whole gang are open to prosecution from Albania to Vietnam. There's also maybe 30 years to get the bastards. Many things can happen... "it'd be easily asserted in any sane court that disagreeing w/ the justification doesn't mean something lacks justification." That's not the issue. The issue is that there is no justification whatsoever.

wow aren't we leftist. no possible justification for war? why have all the OTHER war crimes if simply going to one is a crime? I mean ****.

	26-07-2003 05:17									#143
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"You already have a potential test case for the ability to put an ex-American President on trial in the form of Bill Clinton."

You mean for Kosovo?

"no possible justification for war?"

Well what would it be?

	26-07-2003 05:18									#144
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler You mean for Kosovo?

Yes.

PS Can you explain the unjustified part of this "charge"? Every war has justifications.

	26-07-2003 05:20									#145
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "You already have a potential test case for the ability to put an ex-American President on trial in the form of Bill Clinton." You mean for Kosovo? "no possible justification for war?" Well what would it be?

to depose gross violators of human rights. to stop a dangerous region from getting/developing nuclear weapons. to defend oneself. to aid in the defense of one's ally.

that took 15 seconds, I could probably think of more.

	26-07-2003 05:24									#146
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"to depose gross violators of human rights."

Irrelevant.

"to stop a dangerous region from getting/developing nuclear weapons."

Irrelevant and bogus.

"to defend oneself."

Against what?

"to aid in the defense of one's ally"

Against what?

"that took 15 seconds"

It shows.

	26-07-2003 05:26									#147
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "to depose gross violators of human rights." Irrelevant. "to stop a dangerous region from getting/developing nuclear weapons." Irrelevant and bogus. "to defend oneself." Against what? "to aid in the defense of one's ally" Against what? "that took 15 seconds" It shows.

sorry u disagree. but I think all those are viable justifications for military aggression. there's really no need to be a wiseass. or try to incite me into flaming you.

	26-07-2003 05:28									#148
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"but I think all those are viable justifications for military aggression"

I'm talking about the law, not your wishes.

"or try to incite me into flaming you"

Try it, lameass.

	26-07-2003 05:30									#149
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler "but I think all those are viable justifications for military aggression" I'm talking about the law, not your wishes. "or try to incite me into flaming you" Try it, lameass.

I'm not talking about my wishes. I am talking about my beliefs. when u asked me what u think a justification for war is what did u expect to get? ur really a very wound up person who is just looking for someone to lure into a flamewar. maybe bring it down a few notches.

	26-07-2003 05:41									#150
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There are two issues here. Was the US right to go to war without the UN. And was the UN right to be so pathetic about enforcing its cease-fire.