25-07-2003 01:19									#1
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RP declares war!!
Peace offer, RoP, Inchon, Toledo, WM, 43 gold... I wouldn't call that a "treasury", really. Any captured RP town would lose them only a few pennies, and it's not worth paying the banking commissions to transfer these funds every turn just to save a measly sovereign or two.

We have 4 luxuries and 11 happy in Hurricane, the remaining citizen unhappy. Lots of cities celebrating 'We Love Shiber Day'.
We can hold with 0% lux, btw. RP can give us four more luxuries and we'd have 'We Love' day in Hurricane. Cool!

Now for some graphs. We're bumping everyone else aside in score. Our spike is huge relatively! Of course that's just thanks to the new cities, but still, it's cool (as well as dangerous)
Both GoW and ND are gaining in power, ND in particular.

	25-07-2003 01:44									#2
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Any big in-game decisions this turn?

	25-07-2003 01:49									#3
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GoW stack confirmed at Bilbao 77. 13 vet riders, 1 elite, as expected


GoW has planted a couple more cities in the north (or I could have missed them before)


Port isolation is looking awfully inviting, showing just a spear there.

We can get ivory from Spain.

Great wall in four turns.



Steady as she goes!

	25-07-2003 02:38									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Any big in-game decisions this turn?

Nay. I think all to be done is the follow our plans with the galleys, which I can't recall exactly.


Have we considered the problems with culture? Nd looks to have maybe 2.5 to 3x our culture. yikes. and lego has about the same. Not good.

	25-07-2003 03:07									#5
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quote: ND in particular.

Probably from the territory they gained and RP losing land.

	25-07-2003 05:27									#6
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A penny saved is a penny earned. A penny kept from ND is two.

We gift back the 43g, Iron, Furs, and Incense.

As for culture, RP is going to be the one holding most the cities, and they are closer to ND in that regard. Also a much closer Palace. The cities we capture will have an added flip guard in that the citizens will be Spanish once we gift the city to RP. What does the cultural advisor say about our citizens and their views on ND culture? I don't remember if the culture graph goes by current turn culture or overall, but either way it looks like ND has ~1.75x what we do.

	25-07-2003 07:28									#7
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I have the save open and am ready to play the turn. I'll go ahead and do our landings on NM 6 and send our ships back to pick up their next wave. Also, if there are no objections, I'll go ahead and upgrade two WCs to knights (which we can just barely afford after returning RP's gold to them).

	25-07-2003 07:45									#8
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What do we want to do with our new settler? Build a city between Inchoff and Dissidentville, or keep him in reserve for a military city on Bob? Food-wise, Sandstorm's best use is building three-turn workers; working two flood plains and a mountain, it can get both the growth and the production in three turns. But our worker supply is good enough that slowing it or Cyclone down to build a settler wouldn't hurt us much.

	25-07-2003 08:04									#9
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We will need a second settler for the Bob coast if we do as I indicated. Build at NM 3 3, and then replace that port with one at 6 9 when the road at NM 9 is complete. RP is sending a worker pair to NM 9 to build the road (2 of them, complete in... 4 turns).

RP strongly prefers the permanent port to be at 6 9 so that it does not interfere with food supply for NM.

Hmmm. We are going to hold Toledo with 4 pikes, 3 MI, 3 knights, and 4 cats? Close if 14 riders take a pop at us. Miscalculation, btw. Toledo starved to 6 pop, and will starve a bit more, it seems. Damn.

	25-07-2003 08:06									#10
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We're okay with the lux slider at zero at the moment, but we need to see about getting at least one lux and preferably two from RP (not counting gems, which probably don't have a trade route anyhow and which could fall into ND hands at any time). Two would keep us safe even if GoW attacks and we lose a lux and get hit with a little war weariness at the same time.

	25-07-2003 08:11									#11
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Well, they only have 1 silk now. Ivory is safe, for the moment. I hope they have a second spice hooked up.

	25-07-2003 08:23									#12
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It looks like the best crossing point will be OG 7 7 to NM 3 3 6. 4 tiles, 2 turn round trip, average 7 units per turn. That can be replaced with Whirlw 4 to NM 6 6 once the road 9 of NM is built.

	25-07-2003 08:25									#13
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NYE, it looks to me like building the one city and replacing it with the other would use up a settler (equal to a pike plust two pop points) just to reduce transit times by one tile and avoid taking one 2-food, 1-shield tile from RP. I'm seriously skeptical that that would be worth it. Later, once our position is consolidated, we may want to ship in some workers and build a city at NM 9-9-9-9 (especially if RP would be willing to let us keep the city permanently since it wouldn't interfere with their existing cities). That way we wouldn't interfere with New Madrid at all in the long term.

	25-07-2003 09:27									#14
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I am thinking that as well. If we must build only 1, then we should build only at NM 6 9, I think. It effects NM less, and the crucial road will be complete soon.

	25-07-2003 09:43									#15
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If we build on NM 6-9, we'd have to keep custody of New Madrid until the road is complete and the workers who build it are moved out of the way because otherwise, our efforts to bring in reinforcements would be slowed down enormously. With a city at NM 3-3, we can land at NM 3-3 or NM 6 and go around the city to the south as long as RP's troops and workers don't get in the way. So the real question is whether it makes sense for us to hang onto New Madrid for that long. On one hand, we'd speed up most of our reinforcements a little that way and we'd have a city in a position that helps troops get to the front just a little faster. But on the other, RP can get a lot more production out of the city than we can.

	25-07-2003 10:10									#16
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Well, if we wait for the crisis to pass to replace NM 3 3, then the cost is not huge. Maybe we can convince RP to build the settler to replace NM 3 3 with 6 9.

	25-07-2003 10:12									#17
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Of course, 6 9 can have knights move to and attack out of Toledo on the same turn, or move to and attack ND adjacent to Pamplona. 3 3 cannot do that. But for the time being, 3 3 is the best bet. The problem is timing.

	25-07-2003 11:16									#18
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Can we hold the turn until mid day tomorrow?

We need to get a message to GoW before they get the turn. We need to deny access to Bilbao's land. We do not need them to get the save, then go 'woops, we already moved, sorry.'

	25-07-2003 11:22									#19
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Oops. Not necessary. MZ just contacted me.

	25-07-2003 18:31									#20
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I'm not finding our attitudes toward other civs' cultures, but here are others' attitudes toward ours:

Demogyptica, Lego,: Dismissive of our culture,

Spanish: Unimpressed by our culture

GoW, Vox: Impressed by our culture

It would seem that we've just barely passed the Warmongers in culture.

	25-07-2003 18:35									#21
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In a couple more turns, we'll be up to 4 wonders of the world (granted, a couple of early temples would be worth more culture/turn, but whatever).

Don't like that we've got two civs that are "dismissive" toward us. Unimpressed is no big deal.

Lego must be building lots of temples and libraries over there, huh? And the Pyramids help, of course.

-Arrian

	25-07-2003 18:40									#22
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It looks like what we'll have in position to load next turn is seven knights, two pikes, and three vet MedInfs. (Our other two galleys are a turn behind, so we'll be running cycles where every other turn we can load six galleys and unload two and every other turn we can unload six and load two unless we slow galleys down to actually unload troops in a city. Not that we'll have the troops to keep that up for any length of time.)

I moved most of the forces from Elipolis two tiles north. That way, if GoW threatens to land, our five northern MedInfs can hit them on the beaches.

	25-07-2003 18:44									#23
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Actually, IIRC the screenshots right (I don't have access to them here), we're not doing bad at all. We have neglected our culture for a long time, which explains why e.g. ND has a lot more, but if you look at the rate, you will see that we currently have more cultural points per turn then Lego. We are gaining faster then them, so they don't have that many temples either... and we will pass ND soon at this rate.

For the moment, we have to watch out for cultural conversions, but it's not that bad if we have over half our enemy's culture.

DeepO

	25-07-2003 18:51									#24
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I concur with DeepO. We've got the highest slope, and another wonder and temple (or two, I don't recall perfectly) are coming up.

	25-07-2003 19:15									#25
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The fact that we have the highest slope on culture (assuming we do, which I think it looks like is true) doesn't mean that we're generating more points per turn. It just means that the relative difference between our percentage of total accumulated culture and our percentage of culture per turn is greater. The fact that we have such a low total accumulated culture means that we don't need as much culture per turn to have a high slope.

We only have one wonder in the works, and it, like our others, is not one of the really high-culture ones.

	25-07-2003 19:16									#26
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Any last-minute thoughts before I send the turn?

	25-07-2003 19:21									#27
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quote: The fact that we have the highest slope on culture (assuming we do, which I think it looks like is true) doesn't mean that we're generating more points per turn.

Quite true. And yes, our wonders aren't the culture-heavy ones (GL/Colossus = 3 each, Sun Tzu/GW 2 each, right?). Still, we're in decent shape considering.

Militarily, I don't really have any comments because all we can do right now is ferry troops across as fast as we can. I like the composition of the 2nd wave, Nathan.

-Arrian

	25-07-2003 19:31									#28
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Turn and shots sent.

	25-07-2003 20:14									#29
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay The fact that we have the highest slope on culture (assuming we do, which I think it looks like is true) doesn't mean that we're generating more points per turn.

No, us having the highest slope, is a direct proof of us generating the most cultural points per turn. It doesn't matter if you see it relative to our previous culture or not, we are improving, and we're improving faster then Lego. This improving is not see as relative to our previous culture, but to the total of points added to the world culture last turn...

What you guys are talking about is that the slope will not stay constant, and is thus not a direct measure of X cpt. Which is correct, but besides the point: indeed when total world culture rises, the slope will curve back to a vertical line. However, we curve outwards, meaning our cpt is improving. And, the slope at any given moment (for the past 5 turns or so) was bigger then any other country, meaning a bigger cpt.

DeepO

	26-07-2003 00:19									#30
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DeepO, you're forgetting that civs have to maintain a percentage of culture per turn equal to their percentage of total culture before they can even start showing growth in cultural dominance. The advantage or disadvantage that shows up as a growth or decline curve is relative to that starting point, not absolute. For Lego to match our growth curve, their advantage over us in culture per turn would have to be high enough to match the difference in total accumulated culture.