25-07-2003 14:23									#1
	What to do with Bilbao? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I received news from nye, that GS rejected our proposal for positioning troops on Bilbao for one turn. He said it was "not goodwill towards those (RP) who had invited us to Bob".

So, what do we do? I am thinking this is all a ploy for GS to lure us into attacking them or doing something that would enable them to say the NAP was breached, scream bloody murder and declare war on us. I'm sure they're aching for that...

Thus, this decision presents a conundrum, a decision which will have us decide between logic and passion. On one side, we are sick and tired of fighting this war with our hands tied behind our backs. On the other, if we say "**** it" and walk into Bilbao's borders, all we're doing is giving in to what GS wants us to do.

Remember, the best thing we can do is not do what GS wants us to do: an exucse to break the NAP. They WANT us to break it. If we give in to the "**** it" argument, all we're doing is giving the game away by exposing us needlessly.

So please, it's not about cowering to a foreign power, it's doing the one thing that will frustrate their plans! They want a shot at us, what do you prefer: GS cities in Spain, or Port Isolation and Skulgaria wearing the red and blue shield?

Please, think before you vote. We can still win this war with or without Bilbao and it's stupid little mountain.

	25-07-2003 15:36									#2
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What IDIOT asked them in the first place. All we had to do was move into it, then GS would have demanded we leave and then we would leave. Why on earth did ask them first?

My choice is not up there. "Since we already screwed up by asking them first, we have to avoid violating their borders and giving them the possibility of us violating their NAP."

	25-07-2003 15:48									#3
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I say again ...

quote: Public Announcement #1 The GoW does not recognize the Gathering Storm ownership of the Santiago & Bilbao. GS has no influence of control over these cities, and it is simply a cowardly tactic used by RP, in a desperate attempt to thwart the advancing armies of ND & GoW. If GS wishes to enter the war on Bob, then we encourage them to do so openly in the public forum, state their allegiances, and declare war. This abuse of the game mechanics has surprised the GoW, and it is a disgrace that GS would so opening disregard their honour code and resort to such a cheezy tactic.

Then we just violate their borders.

Send a private note to GS that the NAP is still in effect, and as agreed we will not attack any units. However privately, the GoW is disgusted with their actions.

Spit on the honour code and call them poo poo heads as well.


If we dont want to do the public announcement ... then I say go around Bilbao, and we find another way in.


At the very least, we are taking the burdon off ND, as RP has to keep units on our front.

Send our new riders through ND and help on their front.

Request ND to use their MI to destroy Bilbao

	25-07-2003 15:53									#4
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I wish I had access to the most recent save or a map of the front to check out route paths................

	25-07-2003 16:53									#5
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How long do we have to decide?

	25-07-2003 17:16									#7
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ND gets their turn first

Turn #1
If their MI moves SE,
Then we have no choice but to go west.

Turn #2
Then ND moves east
We move onto the watch mountain

Turn #3
ND destroys Bilbao
We can then either kill RP if they have units in the clearing.
Attack Toledo
Or zoom directly south, across to the next mountain.
Attack Toledo

	25-07-2003 17:59									#8
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Guys... By turn three, Bilbao could have 2 Pike in it. That MI will die.

	25-07-2003 18:32									#9
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We can avoid GS territory without slowing down progress, as the graphic shows. Whether or not RP places a unit on the grassland will slow us down a turn or two though. I suggest we follow this path to make it look like we are going for Toledo or Pamplona then strike fast on Madrid. The red x's show tiles we can pillage along the way.

EDIT: the 2/3 to the right of Toledo should be a 3/4 and the other 2/3's should be 4/5's.

And IF we tell GS ANYTHING, it should be "that we fully respect the wishes of our noble ally against Spain and wouldn't dream of violating their territory."

And in that spirit I would be willing to take over as Ambassador to ND and GS, assuming the title of Chief Ambassador of the Grand Alliance. We could post something official stating that MZ ruffled some of the Allies feathers and I am now chief liason to both of our allies against Spain.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 25-07-2003 at 21:12

	25-07-2003 18:47									#10
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Guys... By turn three, Bilbao could have 2 Pike in it. That MI will die.

No it couldn't. The most it could have is 2 spearmen. Its not hooked up to Iron.

	25-07-2003 19:00									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb I wish I had access to the most recent save or a map of the front to check out route paths................

umm... I attach them in the turn threads when we get them - http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...384#post2203384

OK, about the map Ghengis drew up. Just one thing - we can attack New Madrid one turn earlier. The tile N-N of Madrid is actually forest, so it will allow us to move there then move again. From our current position we can move (SW)-(S)-(S)-(S-S)-attack if we want to.

quote: And in that spirit I would be willing to take over as Ambassador to ND and Spain, assuming the title of Chief Ambassador of the Grand Alliance. We could post something official stating that MZ ruffled some of the Allies feathers and I am now chief liason to both of our allies against Spain.

Liaison to our great ally, Spain, against Spain?? Are you thinking of a different team? Anyways... I've been sort of the unnoficial diplomat to ND, and would be willing to make it official. If Ghengis wants another untaken team I'd be fine with that.

	25-07-2003 19:06									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 No it couldn't. The most it could have is 2 spearmen. Its not hooked up to Iron.

GS can ship over Pikes from their homeland...

4 movement galley that can travel through sea.
Bilbao is a great invasion point for them.
They can feed units in it like crazy.

If we decide to violate their territory, we can blockade Bilbao with our galleys, so that GS cant get their galleys in.

	25-07-2003 19:09									#13
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I am sure that GF was meaning to take over relations with GS. Since I have already asked MZ to find a replacement for me, I would gladly hand it over if he wants to deal with nye. (zeit is still MIA....)

	25-07-2003 19:20									#14
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Another point....

We need to tell ND NOT to move their MI SE.

It will almost definately mean GS can ship in units and fortify Bilbao before ND can get there....but it will allow us to get into the action against RP 1 turn earlier.

ND can jump onto watch mountain if they want.
If the RP stack is on the grassland, he will die, but he gets to Bilbao in 3 turns instead of 4

	25-07-2003 20:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 OK, about the map Ghengis drew up. Just one thing - we can attack New Madrid one turn earlier. The tile N-N of Madrid is actually forest, so it will allow us to move there then move again. From our current position we can move (SW)-(S)-(S)-(S-S)-attack if we want to.

But we don't want them to know we are attacking Madrid until right before we do it.

If you want, I guess you could just forward them all our plans so they can prepare the best defense possible....

quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Liaison to our great ally, GS, against Spain?? Are you thinking of a different team? Anyways... I've been sort of the unnoficial diplomat to ND, and would be willing to make it official. If Ghengis wants another untaken team I'd be fine with that.

Yes, I believe if we continue to publicly express the concept that we consider GS, an ally of OURS against Spain we can sow some disension into the ranks of GS. They have members that will be opposed to this war and if can give them ammo to argue against increasing their involvement on Bob it could slow them down enough to make our objectives easier.

However, I was unaware that in addition to being Emperor, you were also the Ambassador to ND and GS (funny, according to the The Central Diplomacy Thread Master Zen is Ambassador to ND and UnOrthOdOx is Ambassador to GS, guess you forgot to tell them they were fired..), so I will withdraw my attempt to volunteer and content myself to nitpick at the actions I have issues with.

Have a nice day.

	25-07-2003 21:04									#16
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DON"T YOU START WITH THAT "Have a nice day." CRAP!!!

(It drives me nuts!!!)

	25-07-2003 21:06									#17
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Ghengis, I said I've been sort of the 'unnofficial' ambassador to ND. I say this because (I think) I have more contact with them than Master Zen. I have nothing to do with GS; Unorthodox is doing the GS stuff. You're the one who said RP for some reason.

	25-07-2003 21:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Ghengis, I said I've been sort of the 'unnofficial' ambassador to ND. I say this because (I think) I have more contact with them than Master Zen. I have nothing to do with GS; Unorthodox is doing the GS stuff. You're the one who said RP for some reason.

Ha Ha very funny, who edited out GS to say "Spain"?

The plan is to get myself appointed ambassador to ND and GS then I would carry on in the public forum as if the three of us were something akin to the Allies in WW2.

We could bring ND in on this and even if GS declared war on them, have occasional mock strategy sessions between our three teams to discuss attack plans.

Of course this is all to confuse GS. ND and us would still plot our real plans with just the two of us. I could even write up an article about my appointment in the next Glory of News Special Report.

	25-07-2003 21:14									#19
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quote: But we don't want them to know we are attacking Madrid until right before we do it.

uhh... look at the map, Ghengis. It gives the same amount of warning as going S-SW-S-S-S-attack. I think it also makes us look more like we're going to attack Toledo.

quote: Another point.... We need to tell ND NOT to move their MI SE. It will almost definately mean GS can ship in units and fortify Bilbao before ND can get there....but it will allow us to get into the action against RP 1 turn earlier. ND can jump onto watch mountain if they want. If the RP stack is on the grassland, he will die, but he gets to Bilbao in 3 turns instead of 4

to Darekill:

quote: hi Darekill, We were wondering where you are going to move your midievel infantry that is right by our stack of Riders. We plan to move our riders SW so it would be great if you didn't move your midievel infantry SE. If you are planning on getting Bilbao with that infantry, the best route for the both of us is for you to go S-E then attack. Thanks, Panzer32

	25-07-2003 21:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Ha Ha very funny, who edited out GS to say "Spain"? I

Well there's the misunderstanding then

Unorthodox is the ambassador to GS but he said something about being willing to give it up...

	25-07-2003 21:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal DON"T YOU START WITH THAT "Have a nice day." CRAP!!! (It drives me nuts!!!)

Have a nice day.




I have to keep saying that, I'm going crazy with how slow we've become at reacting to opportunities and chances to bewilder our opponents.

Arggh! It takes an act of congress to get anything done around here!

	25-07-2003 21:20									#22
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well since we NEED to avoid war, lets avoid their territory. It cost us nothing anyway. Just move sw this next turn and also move the other riders on goto to just s of mavdad. But still wait for my "official" orders after i see the save. Also there will orders for the cities then.
Also remember the old axiom for future dealings with all "it is easier to say sorry, than to ask permission". But I can understand why it was done too.
On a side note, it appears panang has possessed Ghengis, we must perfrom an exorcisim. Be gone unclean spirit known as panang. I think you have to throw a piece of shiber at him, that should drive him off. Maybe he'll possesss togas next.
Aggie

	25-07-2003 21:20									#23
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GF you want to take over things with GS for me?

Please?

	25-07-2003 21:22									#24
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx GF you want to take over things with GS for me? Please?

I've been trying to do that for a week now, but its held up in Blockhead red tape and I can't get those morons to finish the process.

Somedays I think all those Blockheads are simply.....

....uh....

.....well, blockheads.

	25-07-2003 21:28									#25
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Well,

I believe I have full authority over them, so I am making it official now that you are our ambassador to GS.

Ill PM nye and zeit to inform them of this as well.

FYI:
zeit is missing. Don't know what happened, he usually tells us when he's leaving. nye is taking his place for now.

	25-07-2003 21:35									#26
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quote: Honorable zeit, nye, It is with both sadness and pleasure that I announce that the Glory of War has named a new ambassador to Gathering Storm. I have enjoyed our time working together, but am afaid my own schedule can no longer allow it. Both of you have made negotiations with Gathering Storm a pleasant experience, and I hope to be able to work with each of you in the future. From this time forward, though. GhengisFarb will be taking over as your ambassador. I am sure that this will only serve to improve our relations further as Ghengis will be able to devote the time neccessary to ensure an active and healthy relation will continue to grow between our teams. Respectfully, UnOrthOdOx

According to my message tracking, zeit was last online on the 20th, but has not read any messages since the 16th....

	25-07-2003 21:40									#27
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Thanks, since the government doesn't acknowledge me I take it I am our Ambassador in Exile?

Now if I can just con Master Zen and Panzer32 to grant me their ambassadorships to the TWO ND teams they are ambassadors to I can start the Grand Alliance Propoganda Campaign.............

	25-07-2003 21:50									#28
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The question is now, what do we do with Bilbao and Toledo?

(see the 10AD thread for details and a screenie from ND)

I suggest we just stay north of Toledo until ND captures it.

Chatting with Darekill right now in #gow_cofa dtrategy