26-07-2003 20:22									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Agreed, it should go without saying that all candidates have a good grasp of the language of our nation.

Well, that's 99% of Mancunians disbarred for a start.

Seriously though Bods, given the high immigration level of the ward where he was voted in, would that have made a difference to the vote?

If anything, it would have increased it - who would you rather represent you, someone who has shared your problems or someone who is alien to them?

Think over your logic a bit here.

	26-07-2003 20:23									#32
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i don't think it should be. if anyone wants to run, then let them, if they get enough support and get elected then great, more power to them. the thing i object to is taxpayers being forced to pay because someone can't speak english, his party should pay for a translator, if they can't or won't he'll have to do without.

It's one of many concessions accommodated in Council expenses. We had a blind councillor a few years back, and the expense of having his correspondence transferred into media he could read was met by the council. He was, after all, appointed by the electorate and not a political party.

Then you get cars, wheelchair ramps, expenses, etc. They are all in the accounts, other parties crawl all over them to pick fault, and at the next election the public decides whether it's worth it or not.

	26-07-2003 20:29									#33
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well of course, but blind people or those in wheelchairs can hardly help their disabilities, or indeed do anything about them. surely this man knew that his english would have to be of a fairly good standard to perform his duties, and after all he can always learn what he needs to know over time. that's the difference in my mind.

	26-07-2003 20:32									#34
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Has he stated that he has no intention of learning English?

	26-07-2003 20:34									#35
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quote: Originally posted by C0ckney i don't think it should be. if anyone wants to run, then let them, if they get enough support and get elected then great, more power to them. the thing i object to is taxpayers being forced to pay because someone can't speak english, his party should pay for a translator, if they can't or won't he'll have to do without.

So if he bullshits the population into believing him, or if his community believes he's a martyr, we shouldn't let such technicalities as a criminal record get in the way?

	26-07-2003 20:37									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp We had a blind councillor a few years back, and the expense of having his correspondence transferred into media he could read was met by the council. He was, after all, appointed by the electorate and not a political party.

He exactly is not knowing English equivilant to a physical disability?

	26-07-2003 20:38									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Has he stated that he has no intention of learning English?

not to my knowledge (eh?)

	26-07-2003 20:41									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel So if he bullshits the population into believing him, or if his community believes he's a martyr, we shouldn't let such technicalities as a criminal record get in the way?

that's democracy for you.

the thing is, how likely is a major party likely to put up for election someone with a serious criminal record, not very.

	26-07-2003 20:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc He exactly is not knowing English equivilant to a physical disability?

The parallel seems obvious to me - the blind councillor could not understand written communications, the councillor whose English was lame could not understand spoken communications (or reply in kind).

What's your beef?

	26-07-2003 20:47									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy What's your beef?

The same as Cockney's. I don't see a compelling arguement for the council to pay for the translator.

	26-07-2003 20:54									#41
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DD, England and Wales councillors get to claim expenses so they can supposedly do their job.

Local govt is famed for its corruption - why have a go at this guy just because he's new on the gravy train?

	26-07-2003 21:05									#42
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Considering that the people are voting for a party and not a person, I think it's the party's job to put in place a competent person.

Given that this individual does not have a proper grasp on the language being used, it seems to me that it is the responsibility of the party to make sure that this does not become an impediment.

	26-07-2003 21:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy The parallel seems obvious to me - the blind councillor could not understand written communications, the councillor whose English was lame could not understand spoken communications (or reply in kind). What's your beef?

The blind person is still less disabled.

	26-07-2003 21:16									#44
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quote: Yes, the British had better start getting used to it I suppose. "The Liberal Democrats represent the Longsight ward - where 42% of the population are from ethnic minorities. "

Dumbass.

	26-07-2003 21:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Cruddy Well, that's 99% of Mancunians disbarred for a start. Seriously though Bods, given the high immigration level of the ward where he was voted in, would that have made a difference to the vote?

And you wonder why people go on about being made to feel like foreigners in their own country?

	26-07-2003 21:26									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And you wonder why people go on about being made to feel like foreigners in their own country?

Bodds - go check the land registry and other places as to who actually owns real estate.

It hasn't been "my" country for centuries.

Wassamatter? Mancs pride themselves on being Mancs, and while I respect their football teams, isn't it the Brit way to poke fun at the high and mighty?

	26-07-2003 21:29									#47
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quote: isn't it the Brit way to poke fun at the high and mighty?

Yeah, but we'd prefer they actually understood what we were saying..

	26-07-2003 21:31									#48
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He can speak English, just not very well.

	26-07-2003 22:24									#49
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If the guy can do the job, and presumably his ethnicity is an asset in his region, then I dont see why not. The party should pay for a translator, but in terms of a guy performing a function, then I dont see the problem. In terms of the cost of a translator, its hardly a big issue though, imo the party should pay but there is an argument for the council to provide the means by which he can communicate to do his job, a service provided that would outweigh the costs (I use the arguments for AI government as a guide for that).

As far as the local politic is concerned, he had enough votes, thus he was elected into this position. Full stop. Him not being able to speak English should be as much an impediment to him as walking around a campus is to Steven Hawking! The ethnicity of the voting public is irrelevant, and to the point that it is, his characteristics are more of an advantage.

	26-07-2003 22:29									#50
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quote: And you wonder why people go on about being made to feel like foreigners in their own country?

I suggest that this is either you, or a very insecure minority who cling onto fallacious notions of nationhood and patriotism that in England of all places, is entirely irrelevant.

	26-07-2003 22:30									#51
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"his characteristics are more of an advantage"

So it would be worse for a white person to be elected in an area of 58% British?

	26-07-2003 22:31									#52
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I want the best for my country. It's quite obvious you do not.

	26-07-2003 22:33									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's And you wonder why people go on about being made to feel like foreigners in their own country?

Yeah, the way people complain about those British-born British citizens of Asian descent is really disgraceful, isn't it? They shouldn't be made to feel like foreigners in their own country.

	26-07-2003 22:35									#54
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quote: So it would be worse for a white person to be elected in an area of 58% British?

If the average proportion of the entire population was 58% "native" British and 42% Asian, then both would be equally advantageous. However, that is not the case, so a potential difference is created between the rest of the nation, and this pocket of high numbers of asians. As such, in this more concentrated area, issues of race for this minority would be more important, thus this man is in a better position.

	26-07-2003 22:37									#55
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quote: I want the best for my country. It's quite obvious you do not.

On that contrary, what is best for my country is higher immigration (with better integration). What is best for the "white race" is what you purport.

FP: Agreed, if you have British citizenship, then you are British to me.

	26-07-2003 22:39									#56
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"issues of race for this minority would be more important..."

So they are racist and using their race as a basis on which to form decisions?

	26-07-2003 22:40									#57
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"On that contrary, what is best for my country is higher immigration (with better integration)."

Higher immigration up to what point? Surely you have to agree that there has to be a defined limit.

Once you agree with this, our only disagreement is about the degree of immigration not it iself.

Please explain how you would produce better integration. Very few nations manage it.

	26-07-2003 22:42									#58
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quote: So they are racist and using their race as a basis on which to form decisions?

Not at all, it means that this councillor is in a better position to communicate, and comprehend problems in a community with such a high recent immigrant community better than his (like for like) white counterpart. On the other side of the same coin, he may well be taken more seriously by that community. Decisions would not be taken on the basis of race, that is wrong in any circumstance in this context, but rather, taken on the basis of problems, whose root cause may be race, but then, our government does no different.

	26-07-2003 22:43									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Boddington's Very few nations manage it.

Which nations do manage it then?
(this is a genuine question, I'm not being a smartass this time )

	26-07-2003 22:48									#60
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quote: Higher immigration up to what point? Surely you have to agree that there has to be a defined limit

Of course, but if the government wasn't cocking everything up, and also removing the barrier for work, we can take in a whole lot more than we currently are. The key thing though is allowing these people to work, if we keep the status quo, then it works out worse for everyone.

quote: Please explain how you would produce better integration. Very few nations manage it

Very true, you are asking a question I find hard to answer as an idealist, I spend more time contemplating larger problems than actually doing anything useful (so I'm told ). A good idea would be more even distribution, sending them to live in more affluent places than currently, allowing them to work, and also making an effort to change perception of asylum seekers/immigrant among "native" britons. In my limited experience with some of the people in Northampton, the resentment seems to be formed on the basis of misunderstanding, and our simple minded "jumping on the bandwagon" of patriotism. Better education would seem to be the solution. In the short term, like I said, redistribute them more sensibly, avoiding working class areas where resentment may be greatest for economic reasons.