27-07-2003 16:50									#1
	Restart our Democracy game? Suffering from ads?

Things are getting desperate. Two to three turns played in three hours or so. Computers just take that long to work through a turn with so may civs and such a huge map for them to be spread out on.

So, discussion has occurred over what to do - do we restart or continue? Several possible options have surfaced for a new game if we wanted one - here they are.

Rhothaerill's suggestion was that we have a Democracy Succession game, where EVERYone who wants to plays the game for a short time, then saves and posts a report at a certain time. Then we all vote on which save to use, decide on what to do next (broadly), then continue from that save, repeat ad inifinitum until we finish. This would mean everyone can play the game in their own time and understand what's going on in the game ( a current concern is that many just don't know what's happening). We may need to revise the structure of our Government though, since the essence of the game is diversity in the play, so there is no one person who controls units in every game, for example.

donegeal suggested the interest could come from a restart of a regular Demo game but with the Double Your Pleasure (DyP) modifications. For those not in the know, the DyP mod came with Play the World (and is also free for all versions of Civ3 or PtW from www.civ3.bernskov.com if you want to try it), and adds loads more lucuries, techs, units, improivements, wonders and even more Forbidden Palaces! There are some major changes in the game eg the only improvement you can make to terrain is road up until the Medieval Era. It would indeed be a difference from the last game to adapt playing styles to exploit all the new stuff.

Of course there is always just the option of just a restarted game where we have a world with no more than 16 civs and stay away from the huge map size. This map could be made again, by Togas and BigFurryMonster, who made the map we are currently using. This map is very cool, and if you haven't seen it I suggest you take the time to load the save some day to look at it and see how great that map would be to play if we didn;t have the endturn time issues. This wouldn't change anything drastic to attract any more attention, but it would resolve the other of our big issues - the time needed to play turns early on.

Vote now - this poll will go for 10 days as we want everyone to have their say and discuss this a lot. If there is a clear majority with in a week then I guess we could declare the poll closed and keep going from there.

Let's get this done.

	27-07-2003 17:50									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I still think a Democracy game with an underlying $MiniGame would be fun.

	27-07-2003 18:34									#3
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Double your pleasure!

(we can still have a $minigame with that )

	27-07-2003 20:00									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here's the plan for using a Feudalistic peerage system in the $MiniGame:

We all start as Lords and are entiltled to own land tiles. However for the more ambitious:

Territory (Title)

Barony (Baron) - three or more connected tiles (diagonally doesn't count) and pay $500 to the crown.
Barons receive a 5% bonus to all transactions.

(Earl) - Own two or more Baronies and pay $750 to the crown.
Earls receive a 10% bonus to all transactions.

County (Count) - six or more connected tiles (diagonally doesn't count) and pay $1250 to the crown.
Counts receive a 15% bonus to all transactions.

Duchy (Duke) - nine or more connected tiles (diagonally doesn't count) and pay $2000 to the crown. Must be owner/liege of at least three smaller territories.
Dukes receive a 20% bonus to all transactions.

Grand Duchy (Grand Duke) - twelve or more connected tiles (diagonally doesn't count) and pay $2500 to the crown. Must be owner/liege of at least five smaller territories.
Grand Dukes receive a 25% bonus to all transactions.

Principality (Prince) - fifteen or more connected tiles (diagonally doesn't count) and pay $3500 to the crown. Must be owner/liege of at least two Duchies/Grand Duchies.
Princes receive a 50% bonus to all transactions.

Kingdom (King) - Must be owner/liege of at least two Principalities diagonally doesn't count) and pay $5000 to the crown.
Kings receive a 100% bonus to all transactions.

	27-07-2003 20:01									#5
	Remove this text

hi ,

end what we started , ......

have a nice day

	27-07-2003 20:07									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Here's a list of members who expressed interest in the $MiniGame about a month and a half ago:

GhengisFarb
UnOrthOdOx
* Aidun
lmtoops
Kloreep
Jonny
GeneralTacticus
Thrumble
E_T
Uber KruX
skywalker
* GodKing
Octavian X
Nuclear Master
mrmitchell

There's no reason we couldn't start a new one with the $MiniGame, etc and still allow those who wish to finish the current one (and have the computer power to do so) to go ahead and finish it.

With the current one, I don't see a lot of discussion anymore, and I don't see a lot of new people joining (which was one of the reasons we were doing it).

If people can't see a thriving Democracy game they don't have a lot of motivation to get involved.

	27-07-2003 20:21									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I still think we do things too orderly . Instead of a certain governmental position we have a bunch of drunken, disorderly people with vested interests throwing things at eachother?
One incarnation of this would be handing over control of the workers to the mini game after it's been well established. I already know the downfalls to this, and they're pretty high, but I just think the whole game would be more fun if there were also individual goals. And I'm a socialist too so you better listen hehehe

	27-07-2003 21:07									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Epistax I still think we do things too orderly . Instead of a certain governmental position we have a bunch of drunken, disorderly people with vested interests throwing things at eachother?

What's wrong with that? It works for the United States.

quote: Originally posted by Epistax One incarnation of this would be handing over control of the workers to the mini game after it's been well established. I already know the downfalls to this, and they're pretty high, but I just think the whole game would be more fun if there were also individual goals. And I'm a socialist too so you better listen hehehe

I had been working on a system for that with the $MiniGame and we have been experimenting with that type of system in the Glory of War.

You could have the following positions:
Chancellor- makes all decisions regarding Luxury and Tech Slider positions and spending of money. Plays the turns.

Various Ambassadors who are responsible for foreign diplomacy and trade.

Mayors. Each city has a mayor which is an elected position. Anyone who owns a tile in a city's radius get 1 vote for each tile they own in the city radius for that city's Mayor. The mayor makes building queu decisions for that city. All workers are assigned to the city that built them with the intial worker belonging to the capital city. The Mayor is also in charge or worker actions for his cities workers.

REGARDLESS OF WHAT HAPPENS TO THE CURRENT DEMOCRACY GAME, IF WE HAD TWELVE PEOPLE INTERESTED IN DOING THIS WE COULD START IT UP.

I know I'm interested.

	27-07-2003 21:39									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Lets not restart or change the game format for now. Though I dislike not being able to play along (I only use one comp, a 1.30G celeron) most of our time isnt taken up by the "between turns wait" its mostly FAM. eliminatnig a civ or to will help with that.

	27-07-2003 21:45									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by CiverDan Lets not restart or change the game format for now. Though I dislike not being able to play along (I only use one comp, a 1.30G celeron) most of our time isnt taken up by the "between turns wait" its mostly FAM. eliminatnig a civ or to will help with that.

hi ,

so will eliminating units and cities , .....

have a nice day

	27-07-2003 21:48									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by panag hi , so will eliminating units and cities , ..... have a nice day

That's an idea. Let's play the game without units or cities. That'll be fun.

	27-07-2003 21:50									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb That's an idea. Let's play the game without units or cities. That'll be fun.

hi ,





as long as they dont belong to our civ , ........


have a nice day

	27-07-2003 22:40									#13
	Got spare money?

Ok, GF's idea is very appealing. I really like the idea of the Mayoral thing, but there is one problem: Limited number of tiles means a limited number of players. Perhaps a limit to the number of tiles that a person could own might be in order. And allowing the "Mayors" to use the workers as there own play things is a great idea and makes for inter-team squables and brides. Would make the government more realistic! Hehehehehe...

But back to the DyP mod...
How many of you have ever tried it? Excellent mod. Here is an example of some new early improvements:
The Forge (+25% production, 1 gold/turn) available with Ironworking (which is a mid-level ancient tech)
The Slave Market (+25% pro, 1g/t, -2 happy faces) available with Slavery.
Oblisk (+1 Culture/trun) available with Masonry (I don't remember, but I think this is it)

Then the new Great Wonders:
The Pyrimids (No Longer a granery in every city, which didn't make sence anyway, but an Oblisk in every city. Build this, and all your cities will instantly start to gain culture!)
Stongehenge (This is the free granery one. Makes more sense cause Stonehenge is basicly a big clock/calender that allows the people to know when to harvest food and prepare.)
Circus Maximus (Do you like the Sisten's Chaple? Well this one doubles the effect of Colliseumes!)

Some new Governments:
Chiefdom (in DyP, you struggle to get to Despotism!)
Theocracy (your gods ARE right!!!!!)
Fascism (your people ARE right!!!!!)

New units:
Serf (available to Industrious civs only) replaces workers, NO MAINTANCE COSTS!!!
Champion (available to Mil civs only) 2/1/1 bomb 3
Grenadier (Want to fight the Nepoleonics? Now we can!) 6/6/1 Bomb 6

Units also now have different HP systems. Ancient age units recieve a 1 HP negative (so a regular has only two HP) while the later units (or UU) have bonus HP to ensure that your tank doesn't lose to that Spear....

Water travel is much more difficult until Navigation is reached (as it should be). Coastal tiles cost only one Movement Point. Sea tiles cost 2 MP and Ocean tiles cost 3!!! (Now try crossing a ocean in a Galley!!!) The MP cost are negated with Navigation or better level units as they "treat all squares as roads" allowing them to move quick. Oh, and roads now only allow 2 as aposed to 3 tiles of movement (I HATE this and mod my DyP back to 3 which makes my navy move even more).

Now who's to say that we can't do a DyP with a Mini-game?

	27-07-2003 22:42									#14
	Support Apolyton

How about a DyP democracy succession game?

Now that would be interesting.

	27-07-2003 22:53									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

I'm really open to anything, just throwing around extreme ideas.

We could train a bunch of monkeys to reenact the civil war.

	27-07-2003 22:55									#16
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I have no problem using the DYP mod, is there a list of the mod changes somewhere?

Alright, I'm adding you to the list. We would wait for the initial auction until we had enough tiles for everyone to have one. OR we could mod it so that each civ started with 3 settlers and 3 workers to speed it up a bit. Personally, I would have no problem with playing quite a few turns on a weekend turnchat to get up to the point where we could auction off tiles.

Another thing. Settlers should be like Merchant Colonies. They have nine shares (1 tile in the initial radius for each share holder) and we would auction off the shares when we create the settler.

Feudal Democracy $MiniGame Member List
GhengisFarb
donegeal

	28-07-2003 00:24									#17
	Support Apolyton

I'd go for a DYP $minigame

	28-07-2003 00:27									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Why is everyone from GoW signing up?

Feudal Democracy $MiniGame Member List
GhengisFarb
donegeal
Epistax
Panzer32
Jonny
mrmitchell

My only issue with DyP is that they have added a heck of lot more resources and the graphics aren't as good as the orginal ones.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 28-07-2003 at 01:44

	28-07-2003 00:44									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If you go to the site mentioned in the scenerio description you can down load the new graphics. The City view screen, however is harcoded and can't be changed....

	28-07-2003 00:46									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I say we should do a DyP Demo Game, on a smaller map and with less civs so it wouldn't take so long for each turn. It would also have the $Minigame.

	28-07-2003 01:34									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Of course, any game we start (or even continuing with the existing one) could have the $Minigame, and any one could have a different government structure - those are separate issues. All we are dealing with here is whether to change from what we have or not.

	28-07-2003 01:43									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

yes, change.

	28-07-2003 02:06									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Change!

	28-07-2003 03:39									#24
	Put an end to popups!

hi ,

after a long chat with some , .....

why not start for ones in a different era , .......

have a nice day

	28-07-2003 17:16									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have some concerns about utilizing both DyP and the $MiniGame. First we would have to revamp the $MiniGame to fit DyP, as certain buildings and business do not become available until specific advances have been researched, none of this "Fanaticans building computers in 4000 bc when all they know is rock chipping".

Second, I think we would be commiting the same error I feel we did in this Democracy game. In this one we upped the difficulty level and added a lot more civs. I think we should have done one or the other but not both. Yes it is challenging, but there are a lot of people out there that find Regent level challenging. And while they may learn to improve their playing, it gives them less opportunity to participate as many of the dilemas we face may be over their head or out of their playing level.

I would suggest we determine to play the game after this with DyP allowing everyone to play on their own and become more familiar with the rule set for that game and start the one now with the normal rule set and the $MiniGame.

Last edited by GhengisFarb on 28-07-2003 at 19:47

	28-07-2003 19:32									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Whatever you do, keep the Democracy Game separated from any Mini-Game or other spinoff.

Also, realize that we'll want to draw new players to this game. I'm not sure if using the DyP mod will accomplish this.

I'll be glad to help making a new map. But... did you uncover all the tricky bits from the first one yet? Don't think so! (if not - we'll put them in the next one again).

	28-07-2003 19:45									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

ok, minigame without DYP

	28-07-2003 19:49									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by BigFurryMonster Whatever you do, keep the Democracy Game separated from any Mini-Game or other spinoff.

Why? You're not even going to play the Democracy game. You said you didn't want to do it but would rather make a map for it.

	28-07-2003 19:51									#29
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What I meant is: keep the MiniMap Game out of the decision whether and how to restart the Demo Game.

Thanks for pointing that out.

	28-07-2003 20:08									#30
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As I understand it, this poll has nothing at all to do with the minigame, except that the current minigame would almost certainly stop if the current game stops.

The minigame starting separately has nothing at all to do with this poll.