30-07-2003 19:44									#151
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No Pekka, I'm not
But I suspect that whatever good EU will ever achieve you will probably still be unhappy with it. I know many people like that in northern Sweden. They are against EU because they don't like it
I'm not saying you are like that, but you do sound like it.

	30-07-2003 19:48									#152
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Hersh, I'll answer to you when I get back, time to BBQ!!

But I disagree with the most points you said right there, not all, but most.

edit: I meant to say AGREE, not disagree..

Keep on debating, and bring BRITNEY!

Combat Ingrid, well, let's just say I'm little sceptic, but if I see real victories, I'll promise to recognize them. Also I promise that I will change my opinion on this matter if future proves me wrong.

I didn't say Europe or EU is evil or bad. I'm just saying, it is not all that, what people are trying to say it is. At least not yet. Maybe in the future, just maybe, if we're lucky and fortunate enough, then _maybe_.

I'm just bashing the TRUE EUROs here mostly. I have no problems with Europeans or Europe. I have never claimed I have problems with them. And the fact that I am one of them is a fact, and I'm not denying it. But I said that I don't identify myself with it. Well let's say if we were to become one big happy family, maybe I would feel it if enough time was given. But as of now, as the current situation is, we're still only talk and air and myth.

Maybe it will become reality one day, I hope so even if I don't sound like it, I hope nothing but good things for Europe and EU, but ... well we will just have to see about it. NOW I'm out of here. Pork ribs and beer. Mmmm...

Last edited by Pekka on 30-07-2003 at 19:54

	30-07-2003 19:54									#153
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Of course. Just not in the bastardized english meaning.

Please elaborate. Inquiring minds want to know.

	30-07-2003 20:05									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Saras Please elaborate. Inquiring minds want to know.

In the most simple version:
Federal in english usually implies advocating centralisation in a state.
Föderal in german is just describing decentralised systems beyond a certain level of integration, and not limited to a state.

The Federalism debate is useless anyway as it's about the right and wrong of definitions. Tell me what you mean by Federalist, and I'll tell you whether I'm one or not.

	30-07-2003 20:07									#155
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"Federal" actually implies a level of decentralisation in a state, as opposed to centralisation.

	30-07-2003 20:12									#156
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Pekka: fair enough. Enjoy the beer!

	30-07-2003 20:13									#157
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"Federal" requires a certain level of decentralisation, yes, but Federalist is still often used as advocating more centralisation and/or "statehood", whatever that may be.

	30-07-2003 20:18									#158
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In my mind is the old debate at the end of Soviet Union, how moderates in Moscow wanted to transform USSR into a “confederation”, giving us rebels more power but keeping us in, while hardcore commies wanted to keep USSR a “federation”, i.e., the status quo.

	30-07-2003 20:23									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid After reading several pages of Pekka's whining EU-critical argumentation, I recalled (for some reason) this quote from "Life of Brian":

My favourite "Life of Brian" scene

	30-07-2003 20:26									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Saras In my mind is the old debate at the end of Soviet Union, how moderates in Moscow wanted to transform USSR into a “confederation”, giving us rebels more power but keeping us in, while hardcore commies wanted to keep USSR a “federation”, i.e., the status quo.

Well the USSR has never been a proper federation as the federal elements of the state were overlaid by the centralization of the communist party.

Federation vs confederation is a funny topic. There was a long standing disupute in german constitutional doctrine whether the Reich as founded in 1871 was a federation or confederation....

	30-07-2003 20:55									#161
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Well, what was it then?

	30-07-2003 21:00									#162
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I am European. I have lived in the UK, Germany and France. I can speak English, French and German, and I am familiar with the different habits and cultures in each of these countries. I can drive on both sides of the road...

What more could you want?

	30-07-2003 21:03									#163
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"Well, what was it then?"

A mixed system with elements typical for both.

Those two are just categories. As the EU really does not fit either, it's often described as supranational. For example direct effect and precedence of Community law is usually found in federations, the implementation need of 2nd and 3rd pillar acts in confederations. Another oddity is a directly elected Parliament that represents peoples, not a single people. Federal or confederal? Pretty meaningless, unless you love specific terms.

	31-07-2003 06:22									#164
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Well coming back little drunk, I can now do something I will regret and admit I was only pulling your legs.
However I still don't feel European. But I was too provocative and tried to get you p.o.'d for my own childish pleasure. I feel stupid that I did it and I apologize to everyone. TRUE EUROs are still a real thing though, and I find them funny folks.

And remember this post, it should be enough for you to go with few years, because I rarely apologize. I barely take myself to situation where I have to be sorry later, that's what my daddy taught me. So there.

	31-07-2003 06:31									#165
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Hey Pekka, was that your opinion about the upcoming join-the-Euro-or-not vote in Sweden? Or was it just some drunk bullshit I should forget about? ZZZZZZ!!

	31-07-2003 06:31									#166
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And I'm little disappointed, that no one really called out my cards. Is this what I always sound like? Do I lack all debating skills, or why do I feel like you take me seriously? Maybe I have been joking around too much.
It's a sign of a true bastard that you don't know when he's kidding or serious . Yes, I am at the mercy of moderators.. vacation I seek not, but I will take what is just in the eyes of the ultimate rule enforcers in direct connection and descendants of God.

	31-07-2003 06:33									#167
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As I said....

	31-07-2003 06:33									#168
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Olaf, that wasn't me. I have never discussed that issue. I already came down from my drunken night, but you seem to be doing still pretty well, so go on with full power!!

Tomorrow is a new day, and new BBQ day! Sweet..

	31-07-2003 06:40									#169
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Yeah, me and my wife will eat prawn tomorrow evening. I am drunk now, and I rule the world...


This is the view from were we will eat. Why should I care about anything else?

Attachment: solnergång.jpg
This has been downloaded 21 time(s).

	31-07-2003 06:41									#170
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That's all you need really. Looks beautiful. Makes me want to go swimming. That is lake? Is it warm?

	31-07-2003 07:02									#171
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22 degrees centigrade