31-07-2003 23:03									#121
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I'd like to know that as well.

I think they can (and do) refuse to acknowledge gay marriage or union for all federal purposes (like family benefits for fed employees), although that could be discriminating...

But voiding state marriage laws? Well, maybe it's just been sloppy phrasing.

	31-07-2003 23:04									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident that is just proof there should be two kinds of marriages. I think when people get a ceremony by anything other than a priets/minister/etc it should be called a civil union- no matter what their sexuality is. I don't think 2 drunk people who fly to vegas to get married should have the same classification as 2 people who spend thousands on a religious ceremony.

Uh, Diss? I agree with you, but let's be clear: it's not the religious ceremony that costs money; it's renting the reception hall at La Bella Casa Grande Of Milwaukee, hiring the Take My Cherry! -- The Wild Cherry Tribute Band to play "You Sexy Thing" for the first dance, and feeding rubber chicken to all those people your parents made you invite. To say nothing of the goddam dress.

EDIT: I am ethically bound to acknowledge that I have confused disco-era one-hit-wonders Wild Cherry with disco-era one-hit-wonders Hot Chocolate. If I were Japanese, I would now have to kill myself.

	01-08-2003 00:58									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly If I were Japanese, I would now have to kill myself.

You should be glad you aren´t.

I think it will be difficult these days to find a Kaishaku,
who masters the Sword good enough,
to separate your Head from the Body with one stroke

	02-08-2003 07:30									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident that is just proof there should be two kinds of marriages. I think when people get a ceremony by anything other than a priets/minister/etc it should be called a civil union- no matter what their sexuality is. I don't think 2 drunk people who fly to vegas to get married should have the same classification as 2 people who spend thousands on a religious ceremony.

Uh, why should the cost of it have any effect on what its called or its legitimacy?

How about poor people who can't afford a big fancy wedding and just have to go to the justice of the peace instead? Seems remarkably elitist to have a financial threshold for determining "marriage."

	02-08-2003 08:09									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly EDIT: I am ethically bound to acknowledge that I have confused disco-era one-hit-wonders Wild Cherry with disco-era one-hit-wonders Hot Chocolate. If I were Japanese, I would now have to kill myself.

I am ethically bound to advise you that ronin hired by the Errol Brown Defenders of the Faith are hunting you to turn you into Firefly Teriyaki.

Hot Chocolate enjoyed a string of hits including Emma, Everyone's A Winner, So You Win Again, It Started With A Kiss, Love is Life, You Sexy Thing, Heaven is the Back Seat of My Cadillac, Girl Crazy, et cetera.

I believe Alan Vega covered Everyone's A Winner after leaving Suicide.

Surrender your flares, your Suzi Quatro posters, your Partridge Family bag (available with first album) and your ticket stub for the Hammersmith Odeon Ziggy Farewell Concert. Your Seventies visiting pass has been revoked!!!!

	02-08-2003 12:11									#127
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Bush's "We're All Sinners" comment: I'm sorry, but I'm just not comfortable with ANY politician in the US government making such a blatantly religious remark. While refering to "God" can be viewed as a very general and vague symbol, making such a clear statement of personal religious beliefs has never set well with me, especially when made in conjunction with talk of law-making.

I hate to say this

but we vote fort he politician

and for many people, religion is a part of whothey are (on both sides of the isle)

I know that this is true with me (and I think it is true with lieberman too)

it is something that the US knew when they voted Bush in, and it is part of what they voted in

I have no prolbem with a politician being themselves

I jsut won't vote for Bush in the next election (has to do with other issues)

Jon Miller

	02-08-2003 12:49									#128
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quote: my stance: gay 'marriage' gay civil union (legally identical to marriage in terms of legitimacy, legality, and taxes)

Why? Relegating "civil unions" to gay people is nothing less than state declaration of the inferiority of their relationships. I can't possibly see how this could be justified.

	02-08-2003 21:04									#129
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how so?

Jon Miller
(who is fine with gay marriage)

	02-08-2003 23:45									#130
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The message the idea of civil unions says is that gay people and their deviant practices aren't good enough for the pure tradition of marriage. It's totally denigrating.

	02-08-2003 23:59									#131
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marriage has always been defined as union between a man and woman. Everyone has the right to marry someone of opposite sex. I think the best way to let gay people have what they want is to come up something like a civil union. That way everyone is happy. What is wrong with that?

	03-08-2003 00:02									#132
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It's saying that gay relationships are second class.

	03-08-2003 00:05									#133
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Let's say that I'm in 1960 and I say that interracial marriages should stay prohibited because it has been that way for a long time in Texas. Is there nothing wrong with this assertion?

	03-08-2003 00:05									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Why? Relegating "civil unions" to gay people is nothing less than state declaration of the inferiority of their relationships. I can't possibly see how this could be justified.

I and many people like me think that it is morally wrong for anyone to have sex outside marriage and that it should only be between a man and woman. But I dont go forcing others to accept this view. Everyone should have equal rights and if gays really want marriage, I think that civil unions are the best way to go. HOw does civil unions make you feel inferior? Why must gays feel the need that everyone accept their way of life?

	03-08-2003 00:07									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Let's say that I'm in 1960 and I say that interracial marriages should stay prohibited because it has been that way for a long time in Texas. Is there nothing wrong with this assertion?

Racism is illigal. I am just trying to reach a compromise. Many people view marriage between a man and woman and think that men marrying each other is wrong. But gays want to marry each other. So it make everyone happy give gays civil unions.

	03-08-2003 00:10									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Let's say that I'm in 1960 and I say that interracial marriages should stay prohibited because it has been that way for a long time in Texas. Is there nothing wrong with this assertion?

Marriage the way it is today has been around thousands of years and the building block of civilization. Interricial marriage is not different from any other marriage then say the skin color of the people involve. Man marrying anther man is way different.

	03-08-2003 00:15									#137
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quote: I and many people like me think that it is morally wrong for anyone to have sex outside marriage and that it should only be between a man and woman. But I dont go forcing others to accept this view. Everyone should have equal rights and if gays really want marriage, I think that civil unions are the best way to go. HOw does civil unions make you feel inferior? Why must gays feel the need that everyone accept their way of life?

1. I'm not gay so it wouldn't make me feel inferior.
2. I'm not forcing you to accept my view; I just want the state to treat gay people equally. Like it's Constitutionally proscribed.

quote: Racism is illigal.

So is discrimination based on sexual orientation. You might want to take another look at the equal protection clause of the 14th Amendment.

quote: I am just trying to reach a compromise. Many people view marriage between a man and woman and think that men marrying each other is wrong. But gays want to marry each other. So it make everyone happy give gays civil unions.

Ok, so this 1960 character says, I think interracial marriages are immoral and that I don't approve of black people being uppity, but I'm willing to compromise. We can call their unions "civil unions," as long as they leave the good Christian tradition of marraige alone.

	03-08-2003 00:18									#138
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quote: Marriage the way it is today has been around thousands of years and the building block of civilization.

Marriage thousands of years ago is totally different from marriage today. It was generally about pumping out kids, not about love, etc. Does that mean we should prohibit love-marriages.

quote: Interricial marriage is not different from any other marriage then say the skin color of the people involve. Man marrying anther man is way different.

Why?

	03-08-2003 00:19									#139
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Marriage as it is now is not discriminating anyone. Why? Because everyone wheater you are black, or white or gay can marry someone of opposite sex, and no one can marry someone of same sex. It is pretty simple to me to understand. And interracial marriage thing has nothing to do with this.

	03-08-2003 00:23									#140
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quote: Marriage as it is now is not discriminating anyone. Why? Because everyone wheater you are black, or white or gay can marry someone of opposite sex, and no one can marry someone of same sex.

By this critera, marriage in 1960 in Texas didn't discrimate against anyone. Because everyone whether you are black or white or gay can marry someone of the same race or different sex, and no one can marry someone of another race or same sex.

	03-08-2003 00:23									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Marriage thousands of years ago is totally different from marriage today. It was generally about pumping out kids, not about love, etc. Does that mean we should prohibit love-marriages.

And many people that marry today do it because they want to raise a family. Yes some people who marry dont have kids, but most people who marry do or at least try to have kids. Marriage has been about also raise Children where they have both a father and mother to become productive members of society. When all things are equal it is better for a child to have both a father and mother.

	03-08-2003 00:26									#142
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quote: And many people that marry today do it because they want to raise a family. Yes some people who marry dont have kids, but most people who marry do or at least try to have kids.

Once again, so in the name of tradition does that mean we should prohibit heterosexual marriages based purely on love, and don't plan to have kids/are barren or impotent?

quote: Marriage has been about also raise Children where they have both a father and mother to become productive members of society.

But Christianity has only existed for two thousand years. So this has nothing to do with the building blocks of civilization. And besides, there's another Constitutional Amendment you're forgetting - the first.

quote: When all things are equal it is better for a child to have both a father and mother.

Bald assertion. Why is a father and mother any better than a father and father or mother and mother?

	03-08-2003 00:30									#143
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Because their are things that you learn from both parents (father and mother) that is lost when you have two fathers or two mothers. Even single parents can raise good kids and are good parents and I am sure that two men or women can do a good job but it is not the same.

	03-08-2003 00:33									#144
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What precisely are these things that are lost? And are you saying that there no things that you can learn from a man-man or woman-woman relationship that you can't learn from a heterosexual relationship?

	03-08-2003 01:56									#145
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Good, darn poop stabbers/ bean flickers.


hehe...



No really, I feel Gay marriage is bad. Marriage is a religous celebration. I believe its up to the religous entities individually to make the decision themselves.

Now on the other hand. Im not opposed to state-sponsered Union's that have the exact same benefits. Not just for Homosexuals, etc... But for Athiest/all. Should be easy to get and just like any other wedding.

Last edited by faded glory on 03-08-2003 at 02:01

	03-08-2003 02:37									#146
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory No really, I feel Gay marriage is bad. Marriage is a religous celebration. I believe its up to the religous entities individually to make the decision themselves.

What about religious organizations that want to marry gays? The American Episcopal church is set to adopt a gay marriage rite. They are even poised to elect the first gay bishop.

Religious institutions aren't monolithic, and many congregations welcome gay members and want to celebrate their relationships.

The state should treat all couples equally--call them whatever they wish, but call them all the same thing and grant them all equal status and rights.

	03-08-2003 03:01									#147
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"What about religious organizations that want to marry gays? The American Episcopal church is set to adopt a gay marriage rite. They are even poised to elect the first gay bishop.
"

Fine with me. Lets settle this damn issue once and for all and get it done. Your side will eventually win. The longer its dragged out the more it hurts us anyway. One day Catholics will have to go the same route as the episcopals.


"The state should treat all couples equally--call them whatever they wish, but call them all the same thing and grant them all equal status and rights."


Yup no quarrel here. I agree mostly.


"Religious institutions aren't monolithic, and many congregations welcome gay members and want to celebrate their relationships"

Good. Then if there church allows, they should be able to get married. If not, thats were the whole state-union comes in if say the church doesnt allow for homosexual marriages. The state has a responsibility to step in and say "Ok you've been living together, etc....how would you like these partner perks? And a 20% discount on your AAA membership? Plus a one time 5$ Sam's Club membership Card"

	03-08-2003 05:03									#148
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Man this forum is serouisly dead.

Everybody give a big thanks to Ming for banning 90% of the posters in off topic !

	03-08-2003 05:16									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov What about religious organizations that want to marry gays? The American Episcopal church is set to adopt a gay marriage rite. They are even poised to elect the first gay bishop.

Sorry, the Catholic Church already beat them to it

	03-08-2003 05:37									#150
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Man this forum is serouisly dead. Everybody give a big thanks to Ming for banning 90% of the posters in off topic !

No more than 1% of the active posters are banned at any given time... I just nail the jerks like you when you break the rules