03-08-2003 01:58									#61
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Outsourcing sucks too. ****in chinese. Or should I say, ****in corporate greed/Wal Mart.

umm what else do u expect emerging markets to do? just hand us natural resources like they use to?!? increasing levels of productivity will probably not lead to the end of capitalism. but it sure gives u socialists more room to play in(thank capitalism for that).

	03-08-2003 01:59									#62
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Im not a Socialist. Im a protectionist. I say America for America first. None of this Slave Labor bullshit oversea's slowly strangling the middle-class.

	03-08-2003 02:03									#63
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Im not a Socialist. Im a protectionist. I say America for America first. None of this Slave Labor bullshit oversea's slowly strangling the middle-class.

its not slave labor. if the workers weren't cheaper the corporations wouldn't move. and new markets wouldn't emerge.

stagnating in industrialization isn't going to help us.

	03-08-2003 02:09									#64
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its not slave labor. if the workers weren't cheaper the corporations wouldn't move. and new markets wouldn't emerge. "


Excuse me? It isnt Slave labor? Most nike shoe factory makers in asia dont make 1$ a day. Im sorry bro. I dont see the saving being passed down on a 160$ pair of Jordan's. Tell me Capitalism works in its current form. Ill give you yet more examples why not.


"stagnating in industrialization isn't going to help us"

I never said that. I never got a chance to tell you my thoughts. I totally believe we should put a 2-6 year moratorium on Imports that meet a certain criteria (Which could be Labor, Cost to make, Where they were made,etc) and allow time for Domestic makers of goods to get there breath.

	03-08-2003 02:13									#65
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We should have a quota % each year (% of the imports) on which country we import from. Giving higher proirity to nations like Canada and Europe instead of China and singapore. Trust me, if the imports stop, the outsourcers will come back or go out of business if we deny the bulk of there products from being shipped in. If its the latter, others will emerge and be in a stable/fair enviroment to devolop. Unlike now.

	03-08-2003 02:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing here as I've never heard about the Solow principle.

We might be. I'm talking about the principle that productivity gains slow with development. It's probably got another name.

	03-08-2003 02:20									#67
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Basically. I live in the "Rust Belt". (Southeast Wisconsin). Ive watched Case tractor factory go to mexico, Ive watched Miller light get bought out (and prepping to leave) Ive watched 2 Auto plants (Mercury, Ford) leave. I saw this year 2 local airlines go bankrupt, an airline assembly plant leave. 2 Johnson & Johnson factories not built here (instead going to Canada). Oh did I mention Twin Disc? Premdoor? Honda motor plant? Harley? The BIC lighter plant?They also left. All this in the last 4 years. Our city is so scarred and bankrupt from these guys leaving. There factories have been leveled and replaced with a Shopko, Menards, Super-Walmart all springing up like weeds and robbing people blind of economy and quality. And so far only 1 factory came here this year. A bombardier plant that closed in france and came here.


edit so we can replace the 15,000 union jobs from the Racine county area that were lost (people used to come from all over) with the great, maybe 1,000 minimum wage we gained!

	03-08-2003 02:25									#68
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Basically. I live in the "Rust Belt". (Southeast Wisconsin). Ive watched Case tractor factory go to mexico, Ive watched Miller light get bought out (and prepping to leave) Ive watched 2 Auto plants (Mercury, Ford) leave. I saw this year 2 local airlines go bankrupt, an airline assembly plant leave. 2 Johnson & Johnson factories not built here (instead going to Canada). Oh did I mention Twin Disc? Premdoor? Honda motor plant? Harley? The BIC lighter plant?They also left. All this in the last 4 years. Our city is so scarred and bankrupt from these guys leaving. There factories have been leveled and replaced with a Shopko, Menards, Super-Walmart all springing up like weeds and robbing people blind of economy and quality. And so far only 1 factory came here this year. A bombardier plant that closed in france and came here.

kikass, steal from the french! yes I imagine living in the rustbelt would make life ruff. but u don't realize that ppl moved to that area because thats where the jobs were. when the jobs leave, the ppl should file out too! if u just stay in a place w/ no jobs.....

	03-08-2003 02:26									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley That is why demographic problems never get addressed until its too late to do something about it. For example, Mainland China is still continuing with its one-child policy even though they're starting to have a huge workforce shortage and a massive retired population.

We aren't talking about demographic problems. Or course that is a long run problem. Strawman.

	03-08-2003 02:26									#70
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Im not going to mexico to get paid in sea-shells. What about you, buddy? Cause thats were everything is going.

I have 2 college associates degree's and going for a third. Im really getting fed up with these career changes im having to make. First it was management, then Printing, now technology....sigh

	03-08-2003 02:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Im not going to mexico to get paid in sea-shells. What about you, buddy? Cause thats were everything is going.

haha I did mean w/in the US. =D

	03-08-2003 02:30									#72
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon kikass, steal from the french! yes I imagine living in the rustbelt would make life ruff. but u don't realize that ppl moved to that area because thats where the jobs were. when the jobs leave, the ppl should file out too! if u just stay in a place w/ no jobs.....

They shouldn't have to move. That is an inefficiency in itself. Greater exploitation is the only reason for the lose in jobs. That's no reason to uproot people who are doing better work than the Chinese can in the first place.

	03-08-2003 02:32									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They shouldn't have to move. That is an inefficiency in itself. Greater exploitation is the only reason for the lose in jobs. That's no reason to uproot people who are doing better work than the Chinese can in the first place.

what would u have the chinese do? its all well n good to demand that uneducated high paying jobs remain in the US. we should have probably also not roboticized. but I don't think its very practical.

if we shut the world out and kept our uneducated high paying jobs. and the rest of the world whirled itself in capitalism. we'd do nothing but fall behind.

	03-08-2003 02:32									#74
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Capitalism will fall when everybody uses machines as thier slaves.

	03-08-2003 02:32									#75
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Why? So in 5 years they leave to? You dont understand. EVERYTHING is leaving were losing about 5 manufacturing jobs to every 1 we get.

Oh wait. i left out a GE plant, General Chemical<--(my old work) , and a Kohler plant.

I think thats all.


Ya its difficult. The streets are getting really bad. Nobody can find a job. We have a 15% Unemployment here in Racine county. I guess it only gets worse.

	03-08-2003 02:35									#76
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Why? So in 5 years they leave to? You dont understand. EVERYTHING is leaving were losing about 5 manufacturing jobs to every 1 we get. Oh wait. i left out a GE plant, General Chemical<--(my old work) , and a Kohler plant. I think thats all. Ya its difficult. The streets are getting really bad. Nobody can find a job. We have a 15% Unemployment here in Racine county. I guess it only gets worse.

hey look. ur area use to be a boon. now the jobs are gone, and ur area will shrink. I'm certainly not willing to give u MY MONEY to prop ur inefficient uneducated occupation up. so unless u can convince someone else to hand ur ass money. I suggest to the ppl who can't get the jobs that are left that they move.

	03-08-2003 02:35									#77
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You know last year Wal-mart accounted for 1/8 of all imports into this country? (20 billion$)

We can all help bye boycotting them. Its all junk anyway.

	03-08-2003 02:36									#78
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory You know last year Wal-mart accounted for 1/8 of all imports into this country? (20 billion$) We can all help bye boycotting them. Its all junk anyway.

20 billion is 1/8th of all imports? that seems insanely low. where u get that number?

	03-08-2003 02:38									#79
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"hey look. ur area use to be a boon. now the jobs are gone, and ur area will shrink. I'm certainly not willing to give u MY MONEY to prop ur inefficient uneducated occupation up. so unless u can convince someone else to hand ur ass money. I suggest to the ppl who can't get the jobs that are left that they move"


We have. The population have been slashed this last decade bye 10%. Also call us inefficient? Puhleasee. They didnt leave cause we were lazy, they left cause Racine workers need more than 20,000$ a year to live. And every single corporation I mentioned above made a decison they could halve or even 1/4 it going somewhere like Mexico.

	03-08-2003 02:39									#80
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon what would u have the chinese do? its all well n good to demand that uneducated high paying jobs remain in the US. we should have probably also not roboticized. but I don't think its very practical. if we shut the world out and kept our uneducated high paying jobs. and the rest of the world whirled itself in capitalism. we'd do nothing but fall behind.

The exploitation of cheap labor is not helping us. It's inefficient and it's harmfull to those who lose their jobs. Maybe an international minimum wage would help, but maybe not. I'm just pointing out the weaknesses of capitalism.

	03-08-2003 02:40									#81
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "hey look. ur area use to be a boon. now the jobs are gone, and ur area will shrink. I'm certainly not willing to give u MY MONEY to prop ur inefficient uneducated occupation up. so unless u can convince someone else to hand ur ass money. I suggest to the ppl who can't get the jobs that are left that they move" We have. The population have been slashed this last decade bye 10%. Also call us inefficient? Puhleasee. They didnt leave cause we were lazy, they left cause Racine workers need more than 20,000$ a year to live. And every single corporation I mentioned above made a decison they could halve or even 1/4 it going somewhere like Mexico.

I never said u were lazy=D. I meant inefficient from a corporate perspective.

	03-08-2003 02:41									#82
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon 20 billion is 1/8th of all imports? that seems insanely low. where u get that number?

It isnt


I should of specified. FROM CHINA.

	03-08-2003 02:42									#83
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon hey look. ur area use to be a boon. now the jobs are gone, and ur area will shrink. I'm certainly not willing to give u MY MONEY to prop ur inefficient uneducated occupation up. so unless u can convince someone else to hand ur ass money. I suggest to the ppl who can't get the jobs that are left that they move.

Why shouldn't everone pay for the cost of globalization? Everyone benefits. Actually the rich benefit more so they should pay more. The people who lose their jobs should be compensated by those who benefit.

	03-08-2003 02:42									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The exploitation of cheap labor is not helping us. It's inefficient and it's harmfull to those who lose their jobs. Maybe an international minimum wage would help, but maybe not. I'm just pointing out the weeknesses of capitalism.

how would an emerging market get a job if they had NO comparitive advantages? in theory their only real advantage is their wage. everything else is a disadvantage.

like I said, shut america off from everyone and see how well we do.

	03-08-2003 02:43									#85
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"I meant inefficient from a corporate perspective."

Well if paying us enough money to eat/live is "Inefficient". Then I guess we are inefficient. Cause the only thing those ****** want is a few more Zero's in there bank account.

	03-08-2003 02:45									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Why shouldn't everone pay for the cost of globalization? Everyone benefits. Actually the rich benefit more so they should pay more. The people who lose their jobs should be compensated by those who benefit.

I don't see any inherent reason to compensate people just because their value has decreased. it happens to the rich too u know? should we compensate them?

	03-08-2003 02:46									#87
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Faded Glory: I'm not unsympathetic to the plight of your area....not in the least, however, I will say that if there is a large, untapped pool of skilled labor in your area that's not being utilitzed, there are only two solutions to be had:

1) Relocate. As you have indicated, this is already occuring (-10% to the population of the area over the past ten years)

2) Get yourself some venture capital and form a startup. The sweetest revenge against the corporate fat cats who left is to show them just how efficient you are! Compete head to head with the b@stards....can't beat them on wages (cos it's more expensive to live), but you can beat them on quality and service, so run with it!

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2003 02:47									#88
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory "I meant inefficient from a corporate perspective." Well if paying us enough money to eat/live is "Inefficient". Then I guess we are inefficient. Cause the only thing those ****** want is a few more Zero's in there bank account.

yah ur basically right. a corporation exists to make money. that is the fundamental perspective. it can do other things, but if it ever gives up that it will cease to be.

	03-08-2003 02:47									#89
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon how would an emerging market get a job if they had NO comparitive advantages? in theory their only real advantage is their wage. everything else is a disadvantage. like I said, shut america off from everyone and see how well we do.

If they don't have a comparative advantage then trade isn't beneficial. You can get a comparative advantage by finding a way to actually produce something with less labor. That is efficient. Just paying your workers less in not a true comparative advantage because you haven't increased world output at all. You have just moved production from one place to another.

	03-08-2003 02:50									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious If they don't have a comparative advantage then trade isn't beneficial. You can get a comparative advantage by finding a way to actually produce something with less labor. That is efficient. Just paying your workers less in not a true comparative advantage because you haven't increased world output at all. You have just moved production from one place to another.

well ur moving them from begging on the streets or subsistence farming into basically a part of the world economy. its like adding on cylinders that didn't exist before.