01-08-2003 21:34									#1
	McJobs Threatened; Collapse of Capitalism Imminent Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanx to McDonalds you will soon not be able to fall back on a job at McDonalds to survive. They are implementing technology to automate each restaurant.

I guess some of you will say that people will eat that many more Big Macs.

	01-08-2003 21:36									#2
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Wrong Kiddo, Capitalism isn't going anywhere. After everyone loses their jobs, they will be able to afford Big Macs from the lawsuits they win from being made fat by the fast food companies.

	01-08-2003 21:38									#3
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quote: Collapse of Capitalism Imminent

Is this one of those cases where if you say it enough times it might actually happen?

	01-08-2003 21:40									#4
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Kid IS just dreamin'... Commie!

	01-08-2003 21:45									#5
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there's no flipping burgers in mcdonalds... you just put them on the grill, cover them (so they cook on both sides), and the grill automatically opens when they are done. you just got to take them off and put them on a tray.

though even with this technology, you'll still need workers to prepare and wrap the sandwiches themselves.

	01-08-2003 22:21									#6
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc quote: Collapse of Capitalism Imminent Is this one of those cases where if you say it enough times it might actually happen?

I believe it was a tongue-in-cheek remark about how the "basis" for current capitalism, low wage service industry jobs, was now in jeopardy.

	01-08-2003 22:24									#7
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I don't think low-wage service industry is in jeopardy, I think that there are just a lot of people out there who don't want to do the low-wage jobs that exist. If McDonalds is sick and tired of high nutrition rates (job turn over, not their food) they should automate more since it costs an arm and a leg to train someone, and let the would be employees work in the fields or sweeping streets...

	01-08-2003 22:24									#8
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quote: Collapse of Capitalism Imminent

Didn't some bloke called 'Marx' say this about 150 years ago?

	01-08-2003 22:40									#9
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There used to be lots of low wage agricultural jobs. Then new farming technology reduced the number of people needed to farm.

Then there were lots of low wage industrial jobs. Then machines reduced the number of people needed to manufacture.

Then there were lots of low wage clerical jobs. Then computers reduced the number of people needed to file papers.

Then there were lots of low wage service jobs. Now automation is reducing the number of people needed to serve.

What's next? You are going to see lots of low wage social and cultural jobs, as that is the only thing immune to being replaced by technology.

	01-08-2003 22:47									#10
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Considering what McDonalds sell, I think it wouldn't make a difference if they made and prepared all the food in a punjabi factory with the use of child labour. After that you just ship the meals to the reasturants. But that's because it tastes like that anyhow.

The job market isn't easy for the low-skilled. It has never been though.

	01-08-2003 22:54									#11
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The interesting thing about the problem (and the thing that reds always conveniently forget), is that the whole POINT of making things is to sell them.

If no one has a job, then no one has any money.

If no one has any money, then nothing gets sold. No TV's, no DVD's, no Big Macs....nothing.

What keeps the economy going is that for every job that gets lost, other jobs get made. For every burger flipper that loses a job, there will be repairmen for the new equipment that replaces them, manufacturers of the new equipment that replaces them, and wholly new job markets opening up (think bio-tech....the market is set to explode in coming years). That is why this country has seen net gains in job creation throughout this entire process (yep, even during the 80's, when manufacturing jobs were leaving the USA in vast number, the NET jobs created in this country was still positive--meaning more jobs were created than were lost.

For as long as there are new frontiers in science, this trend will continue.

-=Vel=-

	01-08-2003 23:15									#12
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However, the potentional problem with this development is that those that lose their job lacks the qualifications that's needed for the new jobs. Inbalance on the labour markets can be a serious problem that takes a while to fix. But that's no concern that McDonalds would have to think about.

	01-08-2003 23:17									#13
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Though Krotpotkin raises a good point- what are low-skilled American workers gonna do? Those'll be some huge welfare rolls if something isn't done about it.

	01-08-2003 23:31									#14
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There's quite a few jobs that's hard or even impossible to replace with machines in the forseable future. Cleaning is one such job. Then there's a growing job market of so called back office jobs, like call-centers.

	01-08-2003 23:56									#15
	Re: McJobs Threatened; Collapse of Capitalism Imminent Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Thanx to McDonalds you will soon not be able to fall back on a job at McDonalds to survive. They are implementing technology to automate each restaurant.

Are they also implementing better food now?

	02-08-2003 00:34									#16
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how does this cause a collapse of capitalism?

	02-08-2003 00:35									#17
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That is a potential problem, it's true, although to be fair, it should be pointed out that this problem has been present IN the economy (and successfully worked through) for a very long time (as auto factories became increasing automated, fewer workers were needed, and those who remained required new skills....as new technologies emerge, the need for wholly new skill sets arises, and job hopefuls compete to acquire those now-needed skills).

One thing that I have long been in favor of is to help shift some of the burden of the cost of acquiring these new skills from the individual laborer to the government (perhaps some form of grant or very low interest loan, or matching fund given to anyone who wants to get such-and-so-certification - This would strengthen the "social safety net" we have in this country, and make it easier for displaced workers to re-acquire skills that the market needs. You already see some of this, but IMO, it is an area that will become increasingly more important as the velocity of the economy continues to increase.

-=Vel=-

	02-08-2003 00:51									#18
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I never said that this was a new problem. The problem does however tend to be more serious at some times trough history and less of a problem at other times. If McDonalds and other food chains erases 100,000 jobs over a few years time it would have some serious effects. Not that that's very likely though.

	02-08-2003 00:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Peter Triggs Didn't some bloke called 'Marx' say this about 150 years ago?

Marx said capitalism would eventually be superceded. In many ways he was correct. Evidence? The rise of socialism and social democracy in Europe. Even in the US lazess faire has been dead since Roosevelt (Teddy that is). Well, until Reagan decided to let industries regulate themselves that is.

	02-08-2003 00:58									#20
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True, and good point....but in a way, a massive displacement like that might be a good thing, if it spurs the strengthening of that social safety net and makes it easier for the displaced to enhance their skill sets....not that I believe we'll see a displacement from Mickey D's automation, but it's entirely possible down the line, *especially* with the increasing velocity of the econ.

-=Vel=-

	02-08-2003 01:02									#21
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Yeah, it might be a good thing in the end. But that's hardly any real comfort for those that ends up losing on the changes. They usually didn't gain much before it either. After all, people at the bottom has always wanted to stop new machines with sabots if nothing else.

	02-08-2003 01:05									#22
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Having been on the bottom, just as you describe, I know what you're saying....no easy answers, sadly. The more distance you put between yourself and the bottom-most rung, the less impacted you will be, but you may still feel it, it's true. The only way around that is persistence and determination, but there IS at least that...

-=Vel=-

	02-08-2003 01:09									#23
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I doubt that very much labor will be saved. After all, you'll still need someone to remove the patties and dress them and move them to the front, not to mention someone to tell the machine to drop a patty.

Since these places typically go begging for workers, I don't imagine it will cost many people their jobs.

	02-08-2003 04:40									#24
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At some point, everything except universities and libraries will be 100% robotized.:P

	02-08-2003 06:42									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin There's quite a few jobs that's hard or even impossible to replace with machines in the forseable future. Cleaning is one such job. Then there's a growing job market of so called back office jobs, like call-centers.

That's what people keep saying. We can see right now in the world economy that output is not keeping up with productivity growth. We call it jobless recovery, but no one wants to talk about the real cause.

	02-08-2003 06:46									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed how does this cause a collapse of capitalism?

See Smileys firs post. How can capitalism survive without jobs? It can't. There is no justification for capitalism unless people have jobs.

	02-08-2003 06:48									#27
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I doubt that very much labor will be saved. After all, you'll still need someone to remove the patties and dress them and move them to the front, not to mention someone to tell the machine to drop a patty. Since these places typically go begging for workers, I don't imagine it will cost many people their jobs.

At first it won't work much better if any at all, but they will make it work better and better with time.

	02-08-2003 16:23									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's what people keep saying. We can see right now in the world economy that output is not keeping up with productivity growth. We call it jobless recovery, but no one wants to talk about the real cause.

Productivity growth in the agricultural sector enabled the transfer of rural labour to industry. The increasing labour productivity in the industrial sector eventually lead to the service sector replacing the industrial sector as the sector with the largest number of employees. At least partly as a result of the low productivity growth in the service sector (in a longer perspective, no matter if there's a Solow's paradox or not).

If large parts of the service sector can achieve increasing labour productivity it seems like there's no emerging sector for the surplus labour to move to. Even if the division of economic activity into sectors is a artificial one. The bargain position of labour is not at all as good as it was after the war and before the 1970s, but that would seem like an odd period in the history of western economies. The future development is (always) hard to predict.

There's of cource a risk for a situation where a sizable minority of the population has little or no chance of achieving a decent position as their services are no longer needed. In other words; 2/3 of the labour is enough to keep up with demand. Could be a serious problem for the future.

	02-08-2003 16:33									#29
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The likes of McDonalds is on the way out over here. You can get better food and cheaper (or not much more expensive) due to cheap pub chains serving food all day. That has absolutely clobbered McDonalds here...

	02-08-2003 16:42									#30
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I guess the idea behind McDonalds automatization tests is to lower the production costs even further. This could enable the company to keep prices lower than the competition that has no likely chance of investing in advanced machinery. It's however hard to say if this would save McDonalds in the long run. The alternatives will still be cheap, even if they are not as cheap, and it will with all certainty taste better. McDonalds is by all standards the crapiest crap food around. At least were I live.