02-08-2003 07:47									#1
	What if Karl Marx had died in June of 1844? Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

What would be the effects upon the world had Karl Marx been killed* in his early days in Paris, say June 1844, (or at any time before he met Engles)?

*Make up your own scenario - the one I have in mind has him getting kicked by a spooked horse while walking along the streets of Paris. The previous thread taught me my lesson: if somebody doesn't like the scenario, they won't bother to answer the question. Sava.

	02-08-2003 07:49									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Che would have to find something else to rally behind.

	02-08-2003 07:51									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

We would all be speaking Dutch right now.

	02-08-2003 07:51									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't like this scenario. It dismisses Eastern philsophies that had already come to similar conclusions as Marx millenia ago. (<-Parodying myself. )

Question: Was June 1844 BEFORE he wrote, erm...*draws a blank again*...what he wrote?

	02-08-2003 07:53									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, it was before he wrote anything of much consequence, including the Communist Manifesto (1848) and Das Kapital (no idea). I'm literally asking:

"What would the world be like if Marx died before he met Engles"?

	02-08-2003 07:58									#6
	Tired of ads?

I know some of the more "rugged individualist" types won't like this, but they are wrong. So here it goes:

Someone else would have come up with a similar theory. Marxism was "in the air" or just part of the zeitgiest. People do not just pull ideas out of thin air. Moreover, it takes the surrounding society to pick up on these ideas. Someone would have come up a similar theory, and the same people would have likely picked up on it.

I think Marx would agree

	02-08-2003 08:00									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Not much different. The socialists would have had other intellectuals to build their ideology upon.
On the scope of the ideology, things could have been different (more radical, or better thought out as there would be no star to shadow over other socialist scholars). But these changes are only interesting if you're into ideological scholarship.

If you're talking about the world history, I say there would have been about no change. Socialist agitation didn't wait for Marx, and Marxism wasn't much used by socialist parties or countries despite the rethoric. Example : Marx said the revolution would be successful in highly industrialized countries (he had Germany in mind), and in the end, the German revolution failed, while the Russian and Chinese ones succeeded.

	02-08-2003 08:05									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have no doubt that socialism would still emerge as a dominant political force, but don't doubt the importance of personality on these sort of things. Imagine if the AH's Marx's "successor" (for want of a better word) was a lot less confrontational and strident in his writing, used far fewer violent epigrams, and (unlike the real Marx) wasn't overtly hostile to religion. Would Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc rise to the same prominence in a "kinder, gentler" communist movement, one that was more willing to incorporate (or at least tolerate) the elements of traditional religion?

	02-08-2003 08:11									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

At the time Marx was writing, there was already a stringent opposition to religion in the left. The whole tone of the left (with its anarchist representatives such as Proudhon) was very radical, which fitted the extreme social tension of that time. Religion was seen as an element of the Bourgeois order, and would have continued to be seen so until social democracy came and soothed the working class in industrial countries.

The working class became calm only once it has been tamed by the social democracy. During Marx era, a 'kinder gentler' communism would have had very small support.

	02-08-2003 08:14									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Marxism would be called Bananaism, a whole sociopolitical landscape in which everyone lived their life as they saw fit and prejudice did not exist. Hitler would have merely been a struggling arts student, love would roam freely around the world, and prostitution would be legal and far cheaper.

	02-08-2003 08:20									#11
	Suffering from ads?

Without Marx, you wouldn't have had a 'unifying' force of the left, basically. It would be a plethora of various lefty groups fighting among each other (like now ). Marx did bring some unification to the far left, for a little while anyway. Yes, you did have your anarchists still, but most lefties were Marxists.

I also think that these groups would not have been as powerful as the Marxist ideology was. There would be many, many mini revolutions which would turn quickly to guerrila warfare. Somewhere down the line some moderate commies would start to gain power and go for a middle ground between the radicals and right-wing. 'Social Democracy' (or whatever it would be called) would be the dominent ideology much earlier and would take over countries, especially like Russia, which never would have gone Bolshevik.

	02-08-2003 08:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

As templar said, something very close to what Marx said would have come up: I really have to wonder how much effect, for example, Marx had on the Paris Commune. Radicals and anarchists would have continued to be active,as well as socialists (who did not come out of Marx either). Various old empires were realy on the verge of being torn apart..I doub what would have come up in those vacuums would have somehow been more humanitarian than Marxism.

As for particulars like this guy's rule or that guys, too much is involved for one act, like no Marx, making that great a shift.

	02-08-2003 09:51									#13
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree that the end result would probably be similar, but by all means not necessarily equal to the history we know.

The minimum changes caused by Marx's death would create other small differences that could, if they gathered enough weight, potentially affect history in ways we cannot guess nor measure (and I won't pretend to try).

	02-08-2003 12:58									#14
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Then the world would be decades behind in what concerns welfare and social justice, and the working classes would be under a harsher exploitation.

	02-08-2003 13:01									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Then the world would be decades behind in what concerns welfare and social justice, and the working classes would be under a harsher exploitation.

where did you get that from? Pravda?

Actually 40 million people wouldn't of died under Stalin. And the world would be a better place right now without Marx, who was a raving lunatic.

	02-08-2003 13:10									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maybe the radical left wouldn't have split up at the First Internationale, and state socialists would've been open to more revolutionary (i.e. aimed at economic emancipation instead of political conquest, like syndicalism) techniques, thus leading to current society dominated more by socialism than the welfare state.

	02-08-2003 13:12									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Fez where did you get that from? Pravda?

Do you have anything against Pravda? BTW, nowadays, it's a decent opposition mouthpiece.

quote: Actually 40 million people wouldn't of died under Stalin. And the world would be a better place right now without Marx, who was a raving lunatic.

Actually, I believe, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But what I said, I meant it about the West.

40 million!? And the number is still growing... You read too much anti-Pravda.

	02-08-2003 13:19									#18
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Do you have anything against Pravda? BTW, nowadays, it's a decent opposition mouthpiece.

Pravda is like reading the National Enquirer? You know about them?

quote: Actually, I believe, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But what I said, I meant it about the West.

Marx had an effect on western bloc countries? I thought they were capitalist?

quote: 40 million!? And the number is still growing... You read too much anti-Pravda.

	02-08-2003 13:30									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Fez Pravda is like reading the National Enquirer? You know about them?

Nah, Pravda is more red than yellow.

But these two colors peacefully coexist in the Spanish flag...

quote: Marx had an effect on western bloc countries? I thought they were capitalist?

Of course he had. Marx and the mere existence of the Soviet Union had a huge impact on the state of social programs in the West.

	02-08-2003 13:34									#20
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Nah, Pravda is more red than yellow. But these two colors peacefully coexist in the Spanish flag...

Red and Intense Yellow. By the way those have been colors of the Spanish flag long before communism existed. And Spanish red is like red wine.. it isn't related to commies.

quote: Of course he had. Marx and the mere existence of the Soviet Union had a huge impact on the state of social programs in the West.

Marx led Russia to what it is today. A corrupt, dictatorship that calls itself a democracy.

	02-08-2003 13:50									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Fez Marx led Russia to what it is today.

As I said, Russia would indeed be better off without Marx. But the West has largely benefited from Marx.

quote: A corrupt, dictatorship that calls itself a democracy.

Corrupt, yes, but not a dictatorship. Just please give Russia some credit for its accomplishments during the last 10 years. Be more generous!

	02-08-2003 13:54									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Corrupt, yes, but not a dictatorship. Just please give Russia some credit for its accomplishments during the last 10 years. Be more generous!

Okay I admit. I can laugh at Boris Yeltsin! Wait.. is that an accomplishment?

And Putin just looks scary for some odd reason.. ex-KGB right? He scares me...

At least the US and Russia have this oil deal signed.. that I give a thumbs up for. Lessen US dependence on middle eastern sources.

	02-08-2003 14:14									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fez Okay I admit. I can laugh at Boris Yeltsin! Wait.. is that an accomplishment?

That you can laugh at him is not an accomplishment. You (I mean the Westerners) could always laugh at him. But that Russians inside Russia can laugh at him is an accomplishment.

It's like an old Soviet joke. A Russian and an American argue about human rights. The American says: "Look, I can just go in front of the White House and say that Reagan is a fool. Can you do this?". The Russian replies: "Of course! I can always go to the Red Square and say that Reagan is a fool."

quote: And Putin just looks scary for some odd reason.. ex-KGB right? He scares me...

Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

quote: At least the US and Russia have this oil deal signed.. that I give a thumbs up for. Lessen US dependence on middle eastern sources.

Oil deals is good, but high-tech deals would be even better.

	02-08-2003 14:17									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond That you can laugh at him is not an accomplishment. You (I mean the Westerners) could always laugh at him. But that Russians inside Russia can laugh at him is an accomplishment.

Good point. But is Yeltsin an accomplishment to have as a leader?

quote: It's like an old Soviet joke. A Russian and an American argue about human rights. The American says: "Look, I can just go in front of the White House and say that Reagan is a fool. Can you do this?". The Russian replies: "Of course! I can always go to the Red Square and say that Reagan is a fool."

You Russians and your damn jokes!

quote: Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

Well how is handling Chechnya?

quote: Oil deals is good, but high-tech deals would be even better.

Well... Russia has a lot of oil.

High tech deals... well.. the high tech market isn't exactly doing so well as of late. Expansion to other markets would be feasible...

	02-08-2003 14:37									#25
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Fez Good point. But is Yeltsin an accomplishment to have as a leader?

To a certain extent, yes. He was a drunk. He made a lot of mistakes. But yet he had a vision and courage for a peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union (compare with Yugoslavia!) and for the introduction of market and democratic reforms.

quote: Well how is handling Chechnya?

Firmly, against all the odds. Unfortunately he is not as firm when it comes to firing bastards in the elite.

	02-08-2003 15:01									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The absence of Marx's materialism and dialetics would probably have quite an impact on the development on most socialist and social democratic development. Probably for the better.

	02-08-2003 16:49									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The Templar I know some of the more "rugged individualist" types won't like this, but they are wrong. So here it goes: Someone else would have come up with a similar theory. Marxism was "in the air" or just part of the zeitgiest. People do not just pull ideas out of thin air. Moreover, it takes the surrounding society to pick up on these ideas. Someone would have come up a similar theory, and the same people would have likely picked up on it. I think Marx would agree

This is spot on. If you look at the time, Marx was not the only person to espouse this concept of theory, it would have been thought of by someone else and probably not long after. And probably by Engels

	02-08-2003 16:50									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

...or did they both get killed in a head-on horse and carriage accident?

	02-08-2003 17:49									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

Some other intelectual would have taken his place and everything would have been more or less the same. After all he was one more of these sons of rich people who didn't know anything about working himself.

But... hey! Who sais that Marx wasn't benefical for the world? Now we have historical examples of why the comunism doesn't work. And everything thanks to Marx and his friends!

	02-08-2003 18:01									#30
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by The Vagabond Don't be so scared. The man doesn't even have guts to fire the high-ranking botchers once and for all. He simply moves them from place to place.

Well, I don't agree with that. I think that Putin has a very firm will and determination. But that's exactly why he is there. The old system didn't dissapear completely one day, there are a lot of reminiscences there who must be fought, and they need a strong man to do that. You cannot expect to change a full country (a very big country) that has been under all that propaganda and totalitarian system almost for a century so easily. Can you? It won't happen over night. It will take its time. I think that Russia is on the good way, but things take time. In Spain we say "dress me slow that I'm in a hurry" or "write slow and with good letter". If Russia continues with the reforms started the last years while correcting some of the errors made things will improve. And sooner than most people think.