02-08-2003 08:54									#1
	Everyone needs to see this: CDG a Vassal state of Apolyton? Suffering from ads?

This has to be read to be believed. GhengisFarb of CDG PMed me about chatting with me and nye a short time before this post.

At the time we were discussing in the Poly isdg chatroom about whether to just kill CDG instead of trying to get CFC to give us Construction and both of us ending up with a free Medieval tech. This would benefit CFC more than us and we would throw away our tech lead, leading to the possibility of CFC trading with GCA and making peace, screwing our plans.

Then the chat with GF:

excerpt

quote: GhengisFarb- So the news of the day is that I am soon to be the ONLY member of the CDG team nye - damn, that was me... *blush* Dubya - Team o' one! Dubya - So forever onwards we just talk to you? GhengisFarb - As the last king of the possums I would like to propose I become your vassal state Dubya - Meaning what exactly? MasterZen - a single GhengisFarbian city? GhengisFarb - We work out the exact limits of what i can and cannot do, but it would allow the Apolytonian Empire to have two palaces, two forbidden palaces, and a HIDDEN NATIONALITY CIV nye - heheh, that has potential GhengisFarb - If you are in a treaty but need to "stop a civ" I do it Dubya - So there's what you get out of it! Very cool. nye - this actually interests you, gf? GhengisFarb - If you are at war but need to investigate an enemy city I DO IT GhengisFarb - yes MasterZen - how vile GhengisFarb - I can play this role Dubya - It does sound kind of fun.... nye - won;t the other cdg members come back and ask questions? GhengisFarb - I would ask that I be allowed to build a few more cities very close to my port city GhengisFarb - No, they are going to join other teams and they have given me their blessings to do the best I can GhengisFarb- They don't expect me to last very long. nye - oh. which other teams? GhengisFarb - CFC or Apoly probably Dubya - They don;t know you very well then do they? SO dastardly! GhengisFarb - A lot of them are just going to quit Dubya - That would be possible, at least Dubya - So you just wanted to float the idea with us and stop us entering Shahara this turn, right? GhengisFarb - If I can build 5-6 cities right around the port city I have now I could field a decent assault force. Not enough to take on another civ, but enough to make a diversionary force GhengisFarb - I thought you were going to allow CDG to get to the Middle Ages and get the free tech? Dubya - That was an idea nye - we would like to Dubya - Doesn't CDG have some kind of agreement with CFC that you;d have to stick to as well? GhengisFarb - Part of the deal would be I give you all techs I gain for free and you share your techs with me. I NEVER NEGOTIATE OR OFFER TO TRADE ANY TECH WITHOUT YOUR PRIOR INSTRUCTIONS TO DO SO

This could be of great importance. I will try and summarise why here as I need to go shortly.

GF is offering to run his civ as a vassal to us. The definition of this would need to be confirmed, but it sounds like he would do what we say in return for being allowed to hang about and sharing our tech. We could get their gold and tech and get them to attack those we want attacked without breaking any peaces ourselves. This last part would only work were it to be a secret that we were not linked together in this way. GF refers to other CDG members who are attempting to join CFC, GCA and Poly as knowing this and enjoying the idea, so it may not be tenable at all except for the unknown civs, and then for a short time.

If we kept CDG around, they could research 40turn techs for us whilst we concentrate on others. This would mean we needn't rely on other civs to trade tech as much. GF seems to be offering us his armies as mercenaries and perhaps all his gold too. Currently CFC is stalling on the proposed trade where we get Construction from them, give everything to CDG and get a free Medieval tech out of their Scientific trait. We thought CDG would give up soon so we were looking at just ending it and stuff the free tech. Now we don't need to get Construction urgently as if we do this deal, or even stall a bit, CDG is hanging around. Maybe CFC will get anxious enough to want us in the war they will feel pressured into getting us to help - that's when they may agree to trade Construction.

As per the original agreement with CDG, they had to give all their techs to both is and CFC, but we may be able to reneg this with GF so when the free tech comes around only we get it - not CFC.

The potential in this is huge - it is now up to the team to discuss this and decide.

	02-08-2003 09:13									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

As serious support for GF's 'venture', Mongoose has posted this on 1BC.

quote: Re: CDG Resigns Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:19:00 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fellow ISDG participants, I am posting this message for GhengisFarb, as he is temporarily unable to post onsite: ''I just need to post in the ISDG forum and MRex's thead that CDG does not resign, but I will be the last team member and all other member have the team's approval to join other teams. I will play the turns and thus everyone else will be free to join other teams.'' A quick Adminstrative note... Refugees from a civ will only be allowed to join a civ that they have contact with at the time of their own civs demise.

This means a couple of things.

First, Mongoose accepts GF's stewardship of the civ. That means he has checked with senior people with CDG and been given the green light.

Second, some of CDG may join GCA. They will carry with them knowledge of our contacts with CDG. That would include the last gasp entreaty to join with CFC to kill GCA. Be prepared for some choppy conversations with GCA in the near future. Time to republic, 5 turns. Time to be out of Anarchy, 10 turns.

	02-08-2003 12:47									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Couldn't we ask that CDG/s other member's be put on hold as far as joining other teams for a certain time period? We could call it a "cooling off period" or whatever. I don't think it would be a good idea for any memebers to join any other team so quickly, maybe 10-20 turns should go by first so that important information does not cross over.

	02-08-2003 12:50									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't think so, BF. Remember Lux? That was easier to sort out. We were all on the same site. I think you can imagine the difficulty in reigning in this situation.

	02-08-2003 13:15									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Sounds like a cunning idea to me. Just one question though - are we *absolutely* sure that GF will not betray us? A vassal CDG could be immensely valuable, but if he launches a surprise attack against us while we are at war, we could be crippled. Personally, it doesn't seem likely that this would happen because he'd know we'd hunt him down and break his legs, but we have to be sure.

	02-08-2003 13:27									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I made a "unknown" post at the UN boards asking for this anyways. We'll see what happens. Good luck you guys. See you in a ~week.

	02-08-2003 14:12									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

We at Lux wanted to do something similiar - become a vassal state of Vox and/or GS. Unfortunately, Vox betrayed us before we could work it out.

CDG should be on "controlled growth" - Poly decides what to build and when, what to research, and what other actions to take. This is the boring part from GF's point of view.

The interesting part would be the things he mentions - spying on other civs, creating surprise attacks, etc. He can even go on and produce warriors to train our swordsmen.

We can take it slowly here - at first, we don't trust him with anything, then, we give him some gold to investigate a city, we train some units - nothing spectacular. If he "behaves" in the manner we want, we can push things a little further, allowing him to grow again.

What have we got to loose at this moment? One city, I think.

There is one nasty possibility: a CFC unit is approaching CDG's city from the other side, and CDG wants CFC, not us, to have the city. This would then be all a trick.

	02-08-2003 16:17									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

It would not surprise me if GF set up a spy network for the entire game.

Offer spy services for any team who wants it.

He likes getting noticed, and being a 1 man civ, with spy contracts for every team would just suit him.

Good bloke & a good friend.
He needs us now to pull it off, but keep a watchful eye over him.





And another part of me just feels uncomfortable with this whole idea.
Aliances are fine, but having a co-ordinated 2 team strategy against everyone else feels kinda like cheating.
It's like submitting 2 teams in a PBEM, when everyone else gets only 1.

	02-08-2003 17:37									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: And another part of me just feels uncomfortable with this whole idea. Aliances are fine, but having a co-ordinated 2 team strategy against everyone else feels kinda like cheating. It's like submitting 2 teams in a PBEM, when everyone else gets only 1.

I don't see how it's cheating. It's certainly mutually beneficial, for if we don't do this CDG's not lasting much longer.

	02-08-2003 18:25									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

IMO, this idea is right on the line between acceptable and unacceptable.

Perhaps the most telling question is this: Would the ex-members of CDG have agreed to leave GF in control if they thought he would vassalize himself to 'Poly?

If the answer is No, then we are going to have a huge PR problem and teams may be inclined to gang up on us.

	02-08-2003 18:27									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's not like we started with this situation or that we've been planning this all along.

I do not trust GF, though, and agree with the viewpoint that we should keep a close watch.

	02-08-2003 18:44									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Guys, COME ON. I can't believe we're trying to rationalize and justify this.

Call it what it is: This is a CIV game, and in CIV games, you play ONE Civ.

This is outright, bold-faced cheating. Ghengis wants attention and power and figures this is a way to get it. I am vigorously opposed to this - I want nothing to do with it. A one-man spy network? Could someone show me where that was designed into the game?

If I were on one of the other teams on the other continent, this would make me BEELINE, red-flag for "those cheating Apolyton bastards." We don't know that Ghengis won't pull something - we have no reason to trust this offer.

Let's not let our desire to win ruin our sense of fair play. I want to win too, but not if it forces us to pull crap like this.

Finish off CDG, and let's move on.

	02-08-2003 19:07									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

I would be against it if Ghengis was to have acess here and really be on the Apolyton team, ie Poly has 2 civs.

BUT, That wouldn't be the case; it is just another agreement between civs. A rare one, yes, but still the same as an NAP that is not ingame.

	02-08-2003 20:09									#14
	Got spare money?

Im not sure if its cheating or not, but Im not too against it if he expands in CFC's direction. We will have to watch our backs like hawks though.

Still the more territory he takes away from CFC's expansion room, the weaker CFC will be later.

I think we should demand the choke point city though as soon as he founds his 2nd city. Due to its strategic importance and also it gives us a good way to watch our back against any potential backstab.

	02-08-2003 20:22									#15
	Got spare money?

I actually don't think this can be construed as cheating since Mongoose already sanctioned him running CDG before he ever even asked to be a vassal.

It's more like an agreement that says the following:
Apolyton will allow CDG to continue to exist as a seperate entity.
CDG agrees to the following terms:
1) All research will be handed over to Apolyton.
2) CDG agrees to the borders that Apolyton specifies. (ie we tell them where they can build)
3) CDG agrees to never attack or spy on Apolyton.
4) CDG agrees to share any foreign intelligence it gathers with Apolyton.
5) CDG agrees not to trade with any civ without Apolyton's permission.
6) CDG agrees to grant Apolyton regular tributes upon request.


Its just a highly un-fair (to them) treaty But given that we are agreeing not to eliminate them, it evens out :P


In any case, Im ok with it (even without them being a vassal actually) provided we get the choke point and they settle west of it. It'll be a thorn in CFC's side and not much of an issue to us even if he renigs of the vassalship after getting 4 or 5 cities and a decent army.

	02-08-2003 20:35									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

There may be some extra impressions I can help with, as I was one of the three in chat with GF for this idea.

This idea is vintage GF all the way. I can't say I know him well enough to tell if he will always be satisfied with just this, but for the moment this is innovative, bold and devious - exactly up his alley. I agree with Hot_E - we could not give him an inch.

Addressing Adrian, we would not need to expose ourselves at all - GF has told us he will do what we say and when. If this holds true, then if we want to found a city but don't want to risk him betraying us and taking the settler out, we tell him to move, he moves. We would play it safe.

Addressing dejon, GF informed us in chat that the other CDG members were amused by the idea and wished him luck. They know and their members may reveal this to whatever teams they join. This also means however that secrecy will not be possible. There will be no secret bonding of CDG to us as far as CFC and GCA are concerned, dependent on exactly what happens to CDG members. We should try to keep track of them wherever possible. The only possible ways that GF could be "secretly" allied to us are when we have discovered the other civs and CFC/GCA haven't yet, or if by some fluke one or more of those last two teams don't take in any CDG members: ie they all disappear or all join Poly. Thus the secret aspect of GF investigating or instigating wars for us is out.

The benefit would come from them donating gold and techs to us, as well as coordination in exploration and/or war. We wouldn't consider them our front for guerilla wars etc due to the fact that probably all the others will soon know about GF, rather they would be used for diversionary tactics in war and as a cash/tech colony of Apolyton. The benefits from effectively having a second Palace and maybe FP need to be examined on their own merit.

Now let's look briefly at the potential in this situation. As I have been writing the phrases below I have encountered some staggering thoughts. Think about things a little more and we will undoubtedly come up with far more ways such an alliance could benefit Apolyton.

Setting CDG up to get the benefits from that extra FP and Palace would be a very long term situation, and might necessitate a partial relocation of CDG to some other landmass. Seeing as how our landmass seems to be organised into four parcels of land connected by isthmuses (Poly, GCA, CFC and the area West of Shaharazade), the land WOULD suit 2 civs with a FP and Palace each reasonably well. This would mean CDG ends up with a large land share.

Now to the benefits:

There should be no issue with losing out on the land as it would be less corrupt than if we settled it all, and we should be getting all workers/gold donated to us anyway, and all tech research directed along the paths we want. We would have GF build an infinite number of shite units that we would train our soldiers against, with little risk. We would need fewer Barracks, and have plenty of Elites. CDG would act as a GL farm, except one where we control what units we are attacking. This possibility staggers me as I think of it - no Wonder would be beyond our reach once we had the tech, which we would make first with CDG researching a tech that we were not, and dedicated to donate it to us. Artillery units would be built and captured with the shields left over. CDG warriors could be sent to any area we wanted to settle and prevent anyone else getting there first, and we wouldn't need to expend the time to build them, nor perhaps the gold to maintain them. If there are other lands apart from ours and the other civs' lands then we could double the chance we would settle them, and we would have all the resources we would need that weren't on the other civs' lands, since GF would donate any important colony cities to us.
CDG supported workers would clear jungle for us at a greater speed than our coffers could handle, all whilst we build more important things like Libraries and settlers to build in these new grasslands.

Here's a question: would we get GF to run CDG as efficiently as we run Poly? We probably could not rely on one person to do so effectively, so we would need a new Minister perhaps to oversee GF's cooperation and ensure he knew what we wanted, when, where and how.

This is only the start of all the possibilities. If you come up with any more, let's hear them.

Now to my own point of view. This is so staggeringly huge that I will need to think on it more and read more impressions and thoughts before coming close to realising what I think of this. But I do have one absolute. All this means that CDG is in it for potentially the long haul, so at the very least we need to keep GF alive until we can get Construction either from CFC or for ourselves, and decide whether or not to go through with getting the free Medieval tech from CDG. Currently there may be a treaty signed where CDG must donate all techs they have to us and CFC - we need to find out if there is, and if we can get GF to break that then we have already gained.

Whether or not we decide to go with GF's idea longterm, we can use this situation to keep him playing until we can take advantage of this free Medieval tech, and if we are lucky we can manage it without giving CFC any freebies! So let us not kill CDG yet, but keep the discussion going until we have a decision, and then if we are to kill CDG let it wait until we have reached a point where the free tech issue is resolved.

	02-08-2003 20:42									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

We'll need a Minister of CDG Affairs.

Actually, it's a Minister of GF Affairs.

	02-08-2003 21:15									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think we should take their last city and conquer the world alone, with no vassal states. I agree with Fried-Psi.

	02-08-2003 21:29									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Now to the benefits: There should be no issue with losing out on the land as it would be less corrupt than if we settled it all, and we should be getting all workers/gold donated to us anyway, and all tech research directed along the paths we want. We would have GF build an infinite number of shite units that we would train our soldiers against, with little risk. We would need fewer Barracks, and have plenty of Elites. CDG would act as a GL farm, except one where we control what units we are attacking. This possibility staggers me as I think of it - no Wonder would be beyond our reach once we had the tech, which we would make first with CDG researching a tech that we were not, and dedicated to donate it to us. Artillery units would be built and captured with the shields left over. CDG warriors could be sent to any area we wanted to settle and prevent anyone else getting there first, and we wouldn't need to expend the time to build them, nor perhaps the gold to maintain them. If there are other lands apart from ours and the other civs' lands then we could double the chance we would settle them, and we would have all the resources we would need that weren't on the other civs' lands, since GF would donate any important colony cities to us. CDG supported workers would clear jungle for us at a greater speed than our coffers could handle, all whilst we build more important things like Libraries and settlers to build in these new grasslands.

I think some of these "benefits" come close to cheating. This would be like having two Apolyton civs, which would allow twice the number of cities (with low corruption) than the rest of the civs. IF we should do this, I think we should only allow the vassal state if CDG stays at only one city (or a max of 3)... Think about it, a master state and a vassal state which are the same size, that would really be CHEATING.
This hole business would also for sure damage our relations to other civs.

	02-08-2003 21:31									#20
	Remove this text

I'm actually pretty torn on the issue. The GL farm idea borders on cheating IMO. Just being a vassal state (so long as its formalized in treaties at the UN and Mongoose doesn't see a problem with it) does not.

I definately want us to have the choke point regardless though. Assuming we do it and he settles only west of the chokepoint.

Pros:
CFC loses land to expand into in the event they make peace with GCA (without warring with our vassal anyways). This helps keep them in check without requiring us to directly expend resources to do so.

We potentially get the free MA tech without CFC getting squat.

We still get all the same territory we would have.

He might live up to the deal and give us free extra research, slaves, artillery units, gold, intelligence, etc.

Cons:
It might be perceived as cheating by other teams.

We probally won't be able to keep the relationship secret. I almost wonder if we should even try. Being open about it might negate the cheating image.

GF might stab us in the back: If we have the chokepoint then his potential to really stab us in the back well are rather limited. We could also demand a permanent ROP with him, and station scouts(warriors) in his territory to keep an eye on him. We should do that anyways....

He might not build to our expectations: Not really a big deal when you consider income from him as income we wouldn't of had anyways.

We very well potentially could end up needing to conquer him later post-CFC/GCA.

Very big cons:
He could allow a foreign (other continent) invasion force to make landfall in his territory, mass units, and attack us from his territory. We can minimize the damage with our scout system, but not prevent it altogether really.

He shares all the research we share with him with a foreign power. Not a lot we can do to stop this.

He turns around and gives all his cities to a foreign power (other continent). Nothing we can do stop this.

EDIT: It'd actually be just as bad if he turned around and handed all he had over to CFC after settling all the land north of them.


My conclusion: The risks are not worth it long term. Short term, I'm not sure.

Last edited by wervdon on 02-08-2003 at 21:43

	02-08-2003 21:52									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well I thought about it some more, and I think Im totally with FP. This is a bad idea.

Two reasons:
1) Most important: If we do this, and we later win the Demo Game. The other teams will claim we only won because of this. In effect, doing this will still our lime light should we win the game. This is regardless to whether its cheating or not.

2) Less important: There's too many very real risks with doing this. Sure it has some good benefits, but they all rely on us trusting GF. If he stabs us in the back we could potentially be eliminated from the game. We basically don't need to take this kind of risk right now. We already have a tech lead on our continent, a production lead, and pretty soon a clear military lead. We are the only civ on this continent without any imminent threat of elimination. Taking risks with potential high payoffs are cool, but when your winning they don't make sense.



So my vote is forget this plan. Either take him out now, or get our free tech and then take him out depending on how underhanded we want to be.

I also do not think we should give CFC 3 techs just to gain construction (which we've already traded for, they just are holding out) + 1 free MA tech. Its just a bad deal for us.

	02-08-2003 21:56									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

I see nothing wrong with a vassal... with certain limitations. GL farming, for instance, would seem an exploit to me.

BTW, looking at 1BC, hadn't Mongoose ruled that players can't switch teams?

	02-08-2003 22:50									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by wervdon If he stabs us in the back we could potentially be eliminated from the game.

He has only one city! We'll push him to the lands W of the chokepoint; then, only the chokepoint city will be vulnerable.

	02-08-2003 23:17									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I am of 2 minds on this whole thing:

1) the potential for them to build Rex'ing units and slaves is great. We have them build a settler and they send it to were we want it, build it and then gift it to us. Other things like Artillary units and GL generation capabilities is great.

On the other hand:
2) if we let him build to the point of making another FP and having large cities could present a problem in the future. If he gets to the point that he is big enough, then he could potentially ally himself with someone else. Overall, this could be a disaster for us, especially at the wrong time.

As for my experiance with GF, he doesn't take well to having someone else micromanage his "projects" and that in of itself can present a problem. At the same time, he will be looking for a way to get back out of this whole thing and thereby show his former teammembers that they should have listened to him more than they obiviously had.

And on a personal note, GF had not joined our team, because he wanted to associate with a different croud than with us, partly because of his history with us. His past actions, when he doesn't get his exact way, have been unpredictable and that is something that we DON'T NEED in a Vassel state.

It would be nice to have, but after composing this post, I'm leaning more towards taking CDG out totally. We don't need his help.

E_T

	02-08-2003 23:24									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

BFM: He has one city now, but if we let him exist (even beyond the chokepoint) he could potentially end up with 5 or 6 cities. If he then turned around gifted those cities + all the tech we've shared with him + all his gold to CFC (or another civ) then took all his units and helped them attack us, then it could be a problem for us.


Certainely no one considers him a threat right now though.

	03-08-2003 00:06									#26
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

That's why we should keep him on a short leash.

It's a lot of benefits, but also a lot of risk.

	03-08-2003 00:20									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Theseus I see nothing wrong with a vassal... with certain limitations. GL farming, for instance, would seem an exploit to me.

I agree that it would be ok to have a vassal type relationship with CDG. When we were making plans with the other civs to form tech-trading partnerships, we also could have thrown in a GL farming "partnership". While this may not have been real reasonable, it was an option. Instead of Genghis getting GL's, he gets to live. Sounds like a good deal to me....

The main problem that I see with this relationship is the very real possibility of him turning on us. We keep talking about how great it would be to have our own little b!tch, but if we treat him like that, we will be a target eventually. On the other hand, if we treat him good and throw him a bone every once in a while, he will have no reason to raise up. His only real shot at a victory in this game would be diplomatic, and even that would be a chore. He is staying in this game to have fun. Along the way will come small challenges and opportunities. Maybe he wants a little revenge, too. As long as we don't control every little aspect of his empire, he won't have a reason to act in a way that would be detrimental to our game plan. We want him to need us for protection too, so I say we limit him to 4 cities. No real danger there. And if we don't piss him off, he won't just throw everything at us just for fun.

We could also try being nice, such as for every GL we farm, we give him 100 gold to do whatever he would like with. Sounds like another good deal to me...

	03-08-2003 00:54									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think GL farming is cheating.

	03-08-2003 01:21									#29
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The shorter a leash we keep him on the less useful he is to us.

If we don't keep him up with us in techs, then he can't really help us research. If we do, then he can gift those techs to any other team, thereby backstabbing us.

If we don't let him have more than 1 (or 2 or 3) cities, then he can't give those cities to another civ, nor field much of an army against us. On the other hand, he's next to useless to us in terms of extra income, and extra units to provide distractions.

And as someone mentioned, if we want to effectively a 2nd palace/fp out of him, then we have to let him grow pretty strong.

Its also obvious that that is what he has in mind since he mentioned the 2nd palace/FP as being a benefit of a vassalized state. Would he even accept being our 1 city biatch?


Oh and I totally agree with Hagbart & Theseus that farming for GL's is an exploit. Think of it this way: How many war heroes whose only battles were in "war game" scenarios do you know of? I can't think of any :P

	03-08-2003 01:33									#30
	Remove this text

I can see the benefit of a vassal state, I really can... but after giving this some thoughts I'm with those opposing the idea. Yes, we might (and probably would) gain some advantages... but... somehow... I would feel uneasy if we did.

One thing that comes to my mind... mentioning that we are "letting CDG live" is not fair, as they voluntarily handed whatever remained of their battered empire to us. There was no military action from our side involved (yeah... I know we could have conquered them... but we did not).

So - based SOLELY on my emotions and ignoring the cold benefit analysis, I am against accepting CDGF as a vassal state. If CDGF would be that very thing helping us win, then I would not be enjoying the victory. And if we can win without CDGF, then... well, let's win on our own.