03-08-2003 04:10									#61
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Isn't Maracana 200k?

	03-08-2003 04:19									#62
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quote: But it'll definetly catch on, especially with the changing demographic of America. The Latino immigrants will help the sport rise (MLS should have a soccer team in Texas, IMO).

This is very true. Given this, I'm guessing that Sten is closer to the truth than you are. Within 20 years, we are likely to have some very well attended matches--apparently comparable to Europe, and bigger than hockey. That said, I doubt it will dominate in 20 years.

	03-08-2003 04:21									#63
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Well Sten says it'll take 20 years for it to be the #1 sport! I'm saying it'll take 20-50 years for it to reach and pass hockey's status.

	03-08-2003 04:30									#64
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that's a god point imran. how widespread is local football in the US? over here every small town pretty much has a team. if you looked at the english attendance thing, it went to 7th level, which is regional leagues, i used to play for a team which would be in the 9th level. i take you don't have that number of local clubs over there?

	03-08-2003 04:31									#65
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Well, arguing in his corner is the fact that in many areas, football isn't that big of a sport in high schools. In some of these areas, soccer is bigger.

	03-08-2003 04:33									#66
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quote: how widespread is local football in the US?

Aside from children's leagues, not very. There is the A-League, which is a smaller professional league, but it is the same as MLS, in which it is in some urban areas. The tradition of a local team in every town died when baseball grew out of that tradition (that was the only American sport that was like that).

	03-08-2003 04:38									#67
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ah, that's a shame. i see why an english like system wouldn't work for you. still why can't you have MLS/A-league promotion/relegation?

	03-08-2003 04:43									#68
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Because all of the clubs are owned by the league.

This was a necessary ownership structure to get anything professional and credible up and running in the US.

	03-08-2003 04:46									#69
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ah so the clubs didn't come about 'organically' then, ok now i understand.

	03-08-2003 04:50									#70
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quote: Because all of the clubs are owned by the league. This was a necessary ownership structure to get anything professional and credible up and running in the US.

Actually the MLS model is now the model for all new startup leagues. It's proven to be the smartest thing to prevent a USFL-type meltdown (where the owners try to outspend the others in a new, unstable league leading to bankrupcy for most of them).

	03-08-2003 05:05									#71
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quote: ah so the clubs didn't come about 'organically' then, ok now i understand.

Yeh, the fans density is so low that it's tough to have a "local" focal point--more just a name than anything. So, for instance, DC United could get away with "DC" in the name (geographically a speck of 550,000 people) rather than "Washington" (a metro area of 4 million). All other pro teams in DC use "Washington".

Further, it seems the only thing geography-wise that really has an impact to attendance is whether the area has a lot of hispanic immigrants. That's who fills DC United's seats.

	03-08-2003 05:10									#72
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quote: Actually the MLS model is now the model for all new startup leagues. It's proven to be the smartest thing to prevent a USFL-type meltdown (where the owners try to outspend the others in a new, unstable league leading to bankrupcy for most of them).

Also, there was a failed pro mens soccer league in the US about 20 years ago, IIRC (indoor?). Can't remember the circumstances, but you can be sure that MLS studied the failure.

Edit: On the womens side, the fan density seems greater. The stands aren't filled with immigrants, but rather those who are/were involved in local girls soccer. Girls soccer is pretty huge and doesn't have as much competition for the top atheletes (no comparable autumn sport).

	03-08-2003 05:27									#73
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Here in Sweden club football is on the rise as for attendance and media attention, ten years ago it was more common amongst the people that weren't that dedicated to pay attention to foreign football leagues like the british. Nowadays it's more popular to watch local teams and support them. Here are som pictures of my teams most dedicated supporters, i'm in there somewhere. Our average attendance right now lies at around 17500 which is the second highest in the country.

	03-08-2003 05:38									#74
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Where are the cheerleaders?

	03-08-2003 05:41									#75
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Cheerleaders...
As if we needed something else than the football to watch, what a disgrace.

	03-08-2003 05:45									#76
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What about the marching band?

	03-08-2003 05:48									#77
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The trolls ate them before the game.

	03-08-2003 05:51									#78
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quote: On the womens side, the fan density seems greater. The stands aren't filled with immigrants, but rather those who are/were involved in local girls soccer. Girls soccer is pretty huge and doesn't have as much competition for the top atheletes (no comparable autumn sport).

I believe that's a misconception . MLS regularly outdraws the Women's League, IIRC. Girls soccer isn't bigger than men's, even though with the women winning the WC it may seem that way.

	03-08-2003 05:55									#79
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No, I'll hold the line. The people going to MLS games, at least in the DC area, are immigrants. The people going to Womens soccer are those involved in the sport locally. Even if MLS outdraws womens soccer, then this supports my contention.

Further, in the boys game, soccer competes with football for talent. The only competition that girls soccer might have is cheerleading and dance squad...

	03-08-2003 06:32									#80
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Well in NY/NJ its different. Sure there are a lot of immigrants, but the majority of fans it seems are white kids and parents who were/are involved in youth soccer.

quote: The only competition that girls soccer might have is cheerleading and dance squad...

Women's Basketball?

	03-08-2003 06:34									#81
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Soccer is an autumn sport in junior high and high school where I lived.

	03-08-2003 06:37									#82
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It isn't like basketball is only a winter sport . We had leagues start in late fall.

Also, IIRC, women's field hockey shared the same time frame as women's soccer.

	03-08-2003 07:09									#83
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Apart from hockey, North American sports suck big time.

American Football: yeah sure I've got five hours to sit around while they have rests and polish their armour. Learn to play rugby or rugby league, ya girls!

Basketball: someone said men's netball. Well not quite, netball could be made worth watching if the chicks went topless. Apart from that both games are about as interesting as watching Sunderland.

Baseball: Snore!! Play cricket, a man's game where you can pitch (the considerably heavier and harder) ball right at the batter's head and knock him senseless, [and it isn't even against the rules!!!!!

But what really makes pro sports in the US suck is the crowd. There's no comparison with the singing and general banter of a soccer crowd. I don't want to watch sports with a bunch of silent ponces who have to be told when to cheer.

At SJP the crowd sings popular songs with altered lyrics to taunt the opposition. And they don't even have to be told when to.

And yes I have been to numerous professional sports games in NA.


Here's what happened once.

[Agathon and companions at baseball game]

then...

[the umpire makes a particularly bad decision]

Agathon: [rises from his seat] "You ******* useless blind ****! Why don't you get a pair of ******** glasses!?!

Agathon's companions: "What are you doing, shut up or you'll get thrown out".

A: "What!?! You mean you aren't allowed to swear at/mock the referee or the players?"

A's C; "No, security will throw you out."

A: "So we have to suffer these incompetent ***** in silence."

A'S C: "Yes, it's the Canadian way."

A: "What's the point in ******* coming then? What a ****** league, I can't believe you people pay good money and aren't allowed to complain."


And they made me stand up for the national anthem. At sporting events at home we don't stand and we sing the rude words to our anthem. When I asked a local what the rude words to "O Canada" were, he look blank and said "What do you mean, rude words?"

	03-08-2003 07:18									#84
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Silly Canadians. You can swear/mock the umpires just fine in the States .

	03-08-2003 07:19									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Silly Canadians. You can swear/mock the umpires just fine in the States .

Must just be Canada then.

	03-08-2003 07:21									#86
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You guys are WAAAY too polite .

Come to a baseball game at Yankee Stadium if you want to see some swearing .

	03-08-2003 07:27									#87
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Actually, the college sports have a lot of fan participation, although they are generally very well mannered. I fear the day that a Brit team has the 105,000 attendance of a typical Ohio State or Michigan game.

	03-08-2003 07:29									#88
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, the college sports have a lot of fan participation, although they are generally very well mannered. I fear the day that a Brit team has the 105,000 attendance of a typical Ohio State game.

They would if half of the fans weren't too drunk to make the game.

	03-08-2003 07:32									#89
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And you think OSU and Michigan fans aren't in the same boat?

Brit fans don't even have tailgate parties, do they?

	03-08-2003 07:40									#90
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Here's an interesting statistic. The World Cup in the US had by far (by ~18,000 ) the highest average attendance of any World Cup in history. 69,000.

I'm guessing it's due to all the comparatively huge stadiums we have.