05-08-2003 06:49									#121
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous He doesn't remember events because there weren't any events. According to him, he's had a very calm life. He just always knew he was different. As far as child molestation goes, if it happened to one brother it happened to all of them, because they all attended the same highschool and same church. According to my father, there really wasn't anything. If there had been (remember, Irish Brothers), they would have "taken care" of it with the priest.

That's good to know. Boston could have used more of this sort of thing over the years.

	05-08-2003 22:38									#122
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Japher Mr. Fun I chose to be straight. The same way I chose the color of my hair, eyes, skin, talents, skills, abilities, likes, dislikes, etc... I use to hate the taste of sheit, but I learned to like it, and now I really like it, and my dog and I eat it all the time.... Oh Wait, That NEver Happened!!! Sometimes people just are the way they are and like the things they like, because that is what they like and that is who they are. Question: What's your favorite color? Is that genetic? My favorite color is Hot CHick COlor.

So we are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice?

	05-08-2003 22:40									#123
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: So we are in agreement that sexual orientation is not a choice?

Yup, I think I came to that conclusion on another thread sometime ago. I don't think it is a choice, and I don't think it is genetic (though I hold this opinion with reservation, mainly because science never ceases to amaze me)... Homosexuality is merely a preference.

	05-08-2003 22:47									#124
	Suffering from ads?

Well, yes and no, about homosexuality being a choice.

No, in that its chemicals that determine what you prefer, but yes, in that you can live out the rest of your life as just an impotent straight man.

	05-08-2003 22:49									#125
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Dom Pedro:

That is saying that the act of being a homosexuality is a choice, not that the attraction is... One can't help that.

	05-08-2003 22:51									#126
	Suffering from ads?

How can it be a preference and not a choice? Surely prefering one thing over another is an act of choice. Or am I misunderstanding your meaning?

	05-08-2003 22:53									#127
	Support Apolyton

How is prefering one thing over another thing a choice?

You can chose to act on your preferences, but you don't always prefer your choices.

Are you saying that I choose to like Pepsi more than Coke? I doubt that.

	05-08-2003 22:59									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Just to throw in one tidbit from my German teacher, apparently current research is focusing possible hormonal differences between the first male child and those that follow. Apparently some correlation has been found between having an older brother and being gay. Some researchers believe this is due to drops in certain horomones following each male pregnancy. I have no idea if this is accurate, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

That's hard to believe, as due to the drop in average family size in the industrialized world, logic would dictate that in olden times more than half the male population would be gay.

	05-08-2003 23:02									#129
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Japher How is prefering one thing over another thing a choice? You can chose to act on your preferences, but you don't always prefer your choices. Are you saying that I choose to like Pepsi more than Coke? I doubt that.

Ah, clearly I did misunderstand your meaning then.

	05-08-2003 23:02									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: That's hard to believe, as due to the drop in average family size in the industrialized world, logic would dictate that in olden times more than half the male population would be gay.

I made an observation (without facts, of course) that this was the case... Yet, to say that it was genetic and not sociological has not been proven.

	05-08-2003 23:46									#131
	Remove this text

I saw part of a program on TV about sexuality the other day, which I thought was interesting...

It was more about sex change operations or something though. Specifically, a case in the 70's (?) involving boy twins. Apparently one of the two had a rather small penis, so the doctor (Thomas Wise?) decided to give him a sex operation and turn him into a girl to prevent any problems, and instructed the mother to raise him as a girl.

He published it as the proof that we are all born gender-neutral. Unfortunately for him, and the boy (now a girl), it didn't go well at all. The girl had a horrible youth, and after hearing she was born a boy, had a sex change operation to become a man again.

In the 90's, Dutch research showed that male-to-female transsexuals actually have a different brain that "normal" males. One (?) region of the brain actually looks like that of a normal female brain.

... Anyway, this is all pretty much from memory, and I can't really find anything about especially that original case on the Internet, but here are some articles about the later studies into the differences in the brain for both transsexuals and homosexuals.

I didn't read all of this, but in the "Anatomy Lessons" section it talks about physical differences in the brain between homosexual and heterosexual brains:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/97jun/burr2.htm

Here's the study on the differences with transsexuals:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

And a news article on the same study:
http://www.geocities.com/westhollyw.../article02.html


With my totally absent knowledge of biology, I'd say both environment and genetics play only a minor role (if any), but most of it is rather determined during conception/pregnancy with hormone levels and what not.

So... No, it isn't a choice.

(Attack of the post-editing monsters)

Last edited by Mercator on 06-08-2003 at 00:18

	05-08-2003 23:49									#132
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Dom Pedro: That is saying that the act of being a homosexuality is a choice, not that the attraction is... One can't help that.

Sorry, I was kidding. It was just one of those jokes that didn't have enough oomph to get off the ground... Hey, they can't all be gems!





EDIT: Actually, I think hetero and homosexuality are social qualifiers. I don't think ANYBODY is entirely either. I've never been interested in another man, but ultimately, I think its because I'm very straight and perhaps one has just never been interesting enough for me to go against personal conditioning and very high biological barriers... but there is no such thing as 100% straight or 100% gay to me.

And I point to biology for this... Chimps are known for carrying on same-sex sexual relationships.

So, in a sense, I DO see homosexuality as a choice because I don't think, if we were still running around on the plains in our birthday suits, that any male would choose to be exclusively gay. He would, for the interest of the biological need to procreate, mate with a woman. However, I think our social nature makes bissexuality the default setting for human beings...

	06-08-2003 00:00									#133
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Ag: I am not now, nor have I ever been, a communist. Nor a sympathizer of communism. I am, at most, a Democratic Socialist, with a few libertarian social leanings. I happen to like stuff, and don't intend to let any commies change my materialistic ways.

According to right wing pundits, that's more than enough to put you in the same barrel as the rest of us God-hating communist heathens.

	06-08-2003 00:00									#134
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Fez:

Actually, today I get a little excitement since I have to go to the store and buy kneepads.

Any substantive critique of my claims, Fez?

quote: In any case, I don't think it should matter one way or the other. The problem isn't the gay people, but rather all those people making their life miserable.

First off, I doubt the thread starter intended to turn this debate into a discussion of the morality of homosexuality.

Secondly, your assessment assumes moral relativism, in that everything would be just fine so long as you get rid of people who think differently.

	06-08-2003 00:08									#135
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: I happen to like stuff, and don't intend to let any commies change my materialistic ways.

I always thought Communists hated other people having stuff.

	06-08-2003 00:09									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Actually, today I get a little excitement since I have to go to the store and buy kneepads.

Hey, if the girls do it without such amenities you can surely tough it out!

	06-08-2003 00:10									#137
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

of course homosexuality isn't a choice!!! what kind of silly question was that.

next question please

	06-08-2003 00:11									#138
	Tired of ads?

@Diss

way to stick to 'em

	06-08-2003 00:16									#139
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Hey, if the girls do it without such amenities you can surely tough it out!

Body fat, my man, body fat.

	06-08-2003 00:16									#140
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 First off, I doubt the thread starter intended to turn this debate into a discussion of the morality of homosexuality.

OK... I'll edit the last bit out in a sec.

quote: Secondly, your assessment assumes moral relativism, in that everything would be just fine so long as you get rid of people who think differently.

Not really. Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, unless it starts to impose on other people's rights...
That is, when gays are not allowed to marry, get refused jobs, are beaten up (for being gay, that is), etc.

However sinful you think gays might be, it's all a matter between consenting adults, so their actions don't reduce anyone else's freedoms.