03-08-2003 08:45									#1
	Is Homosexuality a choice? Support Apolyton

Well? I've been debating with some conservatives I know, online and IRL, about the current homosexuality issues (repeal of sodomy ban, gay marriage, etc). In a few instances, I've been told that "Homosexuality is a choice and a sin." So what does 'Poly think? Do homosexuals have a choice in who they are attracted to? Is their homosexuality a choice?

	03-08-2003 08:50									#2
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Yes, every morning they wake up and say "hey, I want to be this way."

	03-08-2003 08:51									#3
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No.

	03-08-2003 08:52									#4
	Re: Is Homosexuality a choice? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Sava Well? I've been debating with some conservatives I know, online and IRL, about the current homosexuality issues (repeal of sodomy ban, gay marriage, etc). In a few instances, I've been told that "Homosexuality is a choice and a sin." So what does 'Poly think? Do homosexuals have a choice in who they are attracted to? Is their homosexuality a choice?

All I know is that I chose to go to a female strip club tonight instead of a male one.

	03-08-2003 08:53									#5
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Of course it is, and I am pro-choice.

All of you anti-choice morons are homophboes.

	03-08-2003 08:54									#6
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Hiya There

I Will choose this thread as the one to formally announce my Return to Apolyton (as starting a new thread would draw attention to the fact that I , an individual actually exist and hence be closed).

I do indeed think that Homosexuality is a Choice, and it will probably attract flames, I fail to see, that with all the perfections in our DNA (Yes, we are a far from perfect race but studying biology makes one aware of just how finely tuned we are in order to 'work') that there could possibly be a flaw in such a black and white issue as Sexuality. A Key Integral of any organism is Reproduction, in Humans this is done via Intercourse between male and female, it's in our genes to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex in order to ensure reproduction takes place. Homosexuality, which would hinder reproduction, would surely then be considered a 'flaw'.

I do not believe that a Race that has been evolving thousands of years could therefore could contain a flaw on such a black and white issue.

	03-08-2003 08:55									#7
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Oh thank God you're back, I was hoping you'd got lost in the depths of a gay bathhouse.

	03-08-2003 08:56									#8
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By the way Boddingtons, if homosexuality is a choice, you just admitted your ass to being bisexual because you've chosen being "straight" when you could very well get it up the ass.

	03-08-2003 08:56									#9
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Thank you for my Welcome.

I am too Pro-Choice though Asher, I merely stated my belief that Homosexuality is a Choice, i do not consider it in any way a sin.

	03-08-2003 08:57									#10
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You live in Pride Park, jesus christ.

Gay.

And I don't want to know what kind of derbies you guys do

	03-08-2003 09:00									#11
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Worthingtons: If homosexuality is such a flaw, how come it didn't get taken out by evolution? And let me ask you a question... I assume you are straight, correct? Well, when you see an attractive woman, do you choose to be attracted to her?

This is a loaded question, because when heterosexual males see an attractive female, before they have time to even make a choice, their body releases hormones. There are significant biological and chemical reactions when a heterosexual male sees an attractive female.

and considering homosexuals have the same feelings, only for the same-sex, I fail to see how it is a choice...

	03-08-2003 09:00									#12
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What's wrong with homoexual men? Women are just so lovely, I mean look, there's thousands of them out there just waiting to be ****ged!!!

They're on the subway, in your apartment block, selling you records... everywhere!!!

Ain't life great?


I mean - I sympathise entirely with lesbians, although I personally like to discourage them (what would we do if all women discovered the "truth"?).

	03-08-2003 09:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon What's wrong with homoexual men? Women are just so lovely, I mean look, there's thousands of them out there just waiting to be ****ged!!! They're on the subway, in your apartment block, selling you records... everywhere!!! Ain't life great? I mean - I sympathise entirely with lesbians, although I personally like to discourage them (what would we do if all women discovered the "truth"?).

Jerry! Jerry! Michael! Michael!

	03-08-2003 09:12									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Worthingtons: If homosexuality is such a flaw, how come it didn't get taken out by evolution?

DOH! - That was my exact argument - IF it was Genetic Evolution would have taken it out!!

As for seeing a Female, yes, i would say I'm straight - But when i see that female it is Natrual to be attracted to them, i dont choose it. My Argument is that Gays Choose to be Gay, but not neccesarily based on pure attraction - I think it is sometimes down to bad experiences with Women, or misinterpreting feelings for other blokes.

	03-08-2003 09:17									#15
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quote: DOH! - That was my exact argument - IF it was Genetic Evolution would have taken it out!!

I see.

quote: As for seeing a Female, yes, i would say I'm straight - But when i see that female it is Natrual to be attracted to them, i dont choose it. My Argument is that Gays Choose to be Gay, but not neccesarily based on pure attraction - I think it is sometimes down to bad experiences with Women, or misinterpreting feelings for other blokes.

Your opinion is noted, but I would suggest you investigate attraction and chemical reactions. Homosexual men experience the same chemical reactions as straight men when they view attractive people. And considering this, homosexuality cannot be a choice as you describe it.

	03-08-2003 09:18									#16
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Homosexuality isn't a choice. It is that clear cut.

	03-08-2003 09:19									#17
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"hypothalamus" is the part of the brain that releases hormones and chemicals that give the feeling of attraction, BTW

	03-08-2003 09:20									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons My Argument is that Gays Choose to be Gay, but not neccesarily based on pure attraction - I think it is sometimes down to bad experiences with Women, or misinterpreting feelings for other blokes.

Your argument does not have merit. I would not choose to be this way. And nor have I ever been on a date with a women, and nor do I misinterpret feelings for other guys.

	03-08-2003 09:24									#19
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As far as I'm concerned, homosexuality is at least partially biological. My understanding is that there exists a fair amount of research into the subject, and, though there has been nothing conclusive, much of the evidence collected suggests this.

Unfortunately, I can't point to anything specific, because about the only thing I've heard on the subject comes from my German teacher (has a master's in philosophy, and loves to have ethics discussions) who may or may not be an accurate source.

	03-08-2003 09:26									#20
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Interesting Sava, I wasnt aware of that such science existed - excuse my Ignorance.
Still, I doubt very much that every person's motivation for changing sexuality is the same - the few people i have seen turn Gay have not exactly had ideal past's, A Friend i know Online accounced his sexuality about a half a year ago, and i wasnt even midly suprised, because of his past.

	03-08-2003 09:28									#21
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Fez, I see you are trolling as usual.

You state my opinion does not have Merit yet at least i back it up with some reasoning, You are merely stating an Opinion and leaving at that - You, are the one who's opinion does not have merit (until you at least give some explanation for it).

	03-08-2003 09:30									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons Fez, I see you are trolling as usual. You state my opinion does not have Merit yet at least i back it up with some reasoning, You are merely stating an Opinion and leaving at that - You, are the one who's opinion does not have merit (until you at least give some explanation for it).

I am stating what I think about it. From my personal belief, as this strikes me personally. It isn't a choice. I gave my reason, I didn't choose to be this way.

	03-08-2003 09:37									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Worthingtons Interesting Sava, I wasnt aware of that such science existed - excuse my Ignorance. Still, I doubt very much that every person's motivation for changing sexuality is the same - the few people i have seen turn Gay have not exactly had ideal past's, A Friend i know Online accounced his sexuality about a half a year ago, and i wasnt even midly suprised, because of his past.

ah, and perhaps the reason such relationships don't work is because the person is a homosexual and not really attracted to the other person. It's hard to make a relationship work when you aren't attracted to someone. And plus, some people might not realize they are homosexual until after such an experience. From birth we're socialized into thinking getting married and having children is what life is all about... and for some it is. But other people simply might be going on with "life" without truly realizing their homosexuality. I had a friend of my family come out when she was in her 50's. She has two daughters and had to divorce her husband because of the situation. I've had long conversations with this woman and they were very revealing about her situation. It's hard to accept being different, especially when you don't know why.

I can relate to homosexuals because I have depression. While the two are obviously different, I didn't realize I had severe depression until I was 18. I had always thought I was different because I didn't enjoy life, didn't see a point to it, and didn't care to live in this world. I've tried counseling, medication, therapy, and nothing works. It's just the way I was wired from birth. I haven't had terribly traumatic experiences. And since being depressed was all I ever knew, it was hard for me to have a frame of reference since I never fully felt happy.

	03-08-2003 09:47									#24
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Just to throw in one tidbit from my German teacher, apparently current research is focusing possible hormonal differences between the first male child and those that follow. Apparently some correlation has been found between having an older brother and being gay. Some researchers believe this is due to drops in certain horomones following each male pregnancy.

I have no idea if this is accurate, but I thought I'd throw it out for discussion.

	03-08-2003 09:49									#25
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I don't have an older brother. Perhaps that is accurate for some (maybe), but not for me.

	03-08-2003 09:54									#26
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I also rather think that Genetics may be involved. But as with Intelligence it may not be pure Genetics, but Genetics combined with Experiences in early childhood.

For example with Birds there is a Period of Imprinting, where you can make the Birds being attracted by other Species.
There is a well known Experiment, where male Zebra finches (Taeniopygia guttata) have been imprinted to display Courtship behaviour to Bengalese finches (Lonchura striata).

Maybe that Humans also have a Period in early Childhood which at least influences Sexual Preferences.

But there are also animal experiments, which show that Genetics have a certain Influence for sexual Preferences and so, as many attributes in Humans, such as the IQ, are determined by both, Genetics and Environment, I think it could be also correct for Sexual Preferences.

	03-08-2003 10:03									#27
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quote: I do indeed think that Homosexuality is a Choice, and it will probably attract flames, I fail to see, that with all the perfections in our DNA (Yes, we are a far from perfect race but studying biology makes one aware of just how finely tuned we are in order to 'work') that there could possibly be a flaw in such a black and white issue as Sexuality. A Key Integral of any organism is Reproduction, in Humans this is done via Intercourse between male and female, it's in our genes to be sexually attracted to the opposite sex in order to ensure reproduction takes place. Homosexuality, which would hinder reproduction, would surely then be considered a 'flaw'.

Insert any genetic fault, apply reasoning above. Conclusion is the same, which leads to --> There are no genetic faults and no genes either apprently?
If bleeders can still exists today, anything can. So what is that confuses you so much that you accept such reasoning as correct one? The volume? Too many gays? What? Please don't say that gay people didn't have children. We are finely tuned indeed, atleast the ones who get the good genes.
I don't exclude environmental factors as a part of causing gayness, but I doubt their significance.

	03-08-2003 10:32									#28
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Of course undesirable genes exist in us, I wish My Skin was more tolerant to sun like colored people, but it's hardly a major issue, if i get sunburned woss the deal?
If , for some reason i had a gene which made me homosexual, it's be a big deal since it would threaten the prolonged existance of my species - Evolution would surely have stamped it out.

I dont disclude genetic factors based on the arguments for the subject, but it's thier significance i doubt

	03-08-2003 10:43									#29
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quote: Originally posted by tinyp3nis If bleeders can still exists today, anything can.

There are way too many Genetic flaws that are still around to claim that evolution would have taken care of it.
Nature or Nurture, both, who knows?

	03-08-2003 10:49									#30
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I don't know.

Take a poll of the gay people, and whatever they decide, I'll assume is correct.