07-08-2003 17:39									#361
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon haha ur logic is the match of waving a stick around in hawaii and saying it wards off bears.

And your English sucks.

	07-08-2003 18:31									#362
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In answer to those who claim that a fetus is a parasite during the first 9 months after the conception,

That might be true, and in fact that makes the fetus very human.
Pherhaps you missed it, but all human beings start being a parasite for the first 9 months.

In fact there has never been a human so far in history who didn't parasite serveral months.

Every mother has been such a parasite for her mother!
If only for that reason any mother should not complain about the problems during pregnancy.

It's not if the baby is only 'ruining' her body.
The mother has 'ruined' the body of her mother likewise.
If her mother would have aborted her there wouldn't have been any body at all to ruin anymore left over.

	07-08-2003 18:35									#363
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka So you assume a woman is capable of full-time studying and/or working during the ~9 month pregnancy? Even if she would be, it could be even dangerous or fatal to the fetus (e.g. miscarriage) and the mother (e.g. depression, fever), so is that also something what you anti-abortionists find fully acceptable and such be put aside, while struggling to be so, ack, morally correct? Gimme a break.

I don't know how things are in the states,
but here in the Netherlands women keep on studying / working until 2 weeks before the birth.

Thus indeed: women are about 90% capable to keep on doing what they already did. (unless they have fysical jobs which is quiet rare among women)

Besides that, life does come with periods in which you can't do what you want to do most. It's something you have to deal with. (instead of living like: "I'll destroy everything that comes on my path while I dislike it"

	08-08-2003 00:29									#364
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Just so we're completely clear with the pro-lifers here: abstract comparison time!

if one day you, the pro-lifer reading this, and I were to wake up in bed together with no memory or evidence of the previous night whatsoever other than the presence of a couple of used condom on the floor, and you discovered that somehow our bodies had become hooked up so that I was using all of your vital organs to sustain myself and I would surely die if I was removed... would it be murder for you to remove me from your body?

	08-08-2003 00:38									#365
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Just so we're completely clear with the pro-lifers here: abstract comparison time! if one day you, the pro-lifer reading this, and I were to wake up in bed together with no memory or evidence of the previous night whatsoever other than the presence of a couple of used condom on the floor, and you discovered that somehow our bodies had become hooked up so that I was using all of your vital organs to sustain myself and I would surely die if I was removed... would it be murder for you to remove me from your body?

umm ur going to have to think about that hypothetical harder. u can't usually morally challenge someone on a physically impossible hypothetical. what did we do? **** each others brains together?!?!

	08-08-2003 00:41									#366
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka And your English sucks.

yes attack abreviation when U R INSANELY WRONG. I hear its a good ploy in inane dumbass land.

	08-08-2003 00:44									#367
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ah well wasnt fast enough

	08-08-2003 00:49									#368
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quote: Originally posted by yavoon umm ur going to have to think about that hypothetical harder. u can't usually morally challenge someone on a physically impossible hypothetical. what did we do? **** each others brains together?!?!

It's not called a hypothetical for nothing! Just answer the principle of the question then- if someone has sex, do they consent to having another living person living off of their own resources for the next nine months? Every time? Every person, or just women?

	08-08-2003 02:17									#369
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Pherhaps people should take sex more seriously indeed.

	08-08-2003 02:46									#370
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie It's not called a hypothetical for nothing! Just answer the principle of the question then- if someone has sex, do they consent to having another living person living off of their own resources for the next nine months? Every time? Every person, or just women?

they consent to the risk. as adults it is my FIRM fundamental belief that YOU AND NO ONE ELSE is responsible for what you do. this includes the risks of ur actions and not just the "hoped for" or "expected" consequences.

	08-08-2003 03:04									#371
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Besides that, life does come with periods in which you can't do what you want to do most. It's something you have to deal with. (instead of living like: "I'll destroy everything that comes on my path while I dislike it"

But you still think the law should limit the rights of a sane adult, without giving the option of free choice and personal verdict on the issue?

quote: Pherhaps people should take sex more seriously indeed.

Or contraception for that matter.

	08-08-2003 03:47									#372
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka But you still think the law should limit the rights of a sane adult, without giving the option of free choice and personal verdict on the issue?

I don't have the free choise to kill someone.
Neither do I have the free choise to hurt anybody in my house.

But I respect free choise, like I said before.
free choise to have sex
free choise to use anti-conception
free choise to use morning-after pill.

But fortunately the law doesn't give us the right the freely chose to do whatever we want.

Life comes with responsebilities.
Become pregnant is such a responsebility.
I think for both man and woman.

A man who 'runs away' should be punished as well.

[/QUOTE]

quote: Pherhaps people should take sex more seriously indeed.

Or contraception for that matter. [/QUOTE]

No, not just contraception.
Be more seriously about who you have sex with.

Nut just one-night stands.
Sure it's fun. But this 'fun' (might) comes with responsibilities.

The teenage-mother problem won't be that huge if we would tell the teenagers to handle sex more seriously.

For some strange reason we spread the attitude that sex is like a conversation. Just have it with anybody.
Of course we tell about anticonception etc.
But factually we're plain stupid. Of course much of these teenagers won't use it in the heat of the moment.

And then we have the responsibility of the baby.

it's not the babies fault, it's the fault of the father and the mother. And these days of the entire community because it threads sex as some fun thing to take which doesn't come with responsibilities.

	08-08-2003 04:32									#373
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quote: So - I'd like to hear just how any of you might refute the fact that a 3 month old fetus (at the LEAST!) IS a human being

A human being is a human being until he is born, after that its a gradual decline - better to kill the poor sod off early :s

	08-08-2003 06:51									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Just so we're completely clear with the pro-lifers here: abstract comparison time! if one day you, the pro-lifer reading this, and I were to wake up in bed together with no memory or evidence of the previous night whatsoever other than the presence of a couple of used condom on the floor, and you discovered that somehow our bodies had become hooked up so that I was using all of your vital organs to sustain myself and I would surely die if I was removed... would it be murder for you to remove me from your body?

I'm not, strictly speaking, a pro-lifer but I'll take a stab at your weird hypothetical dilema anyway. If the condition was permanent (the attached person would never be able to be detached without dying) I'd insist on immediate removal. If it was certain that the conditon was temporary I guess I stick it out but even then I don't think i could handle it more than a couple of years.

	08-08-2003 14:34									#375
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quote: they consent to the risk. as adults it is my FIRM fundamental belief that YOU AND NO ONE ELSE is responsible for what you do. this includes the risks of ur actions and not just the "hoped for" or "expected" consequences.

How far do you want to take this?

No medical assistance for the victims of car crashes. Let them stay trapped in the wreckage until they bleed to death or die of thirst. It's their fault for being on the road.

Abolish fire-fighters. Nobody should live in inflammable buildings, smoke, use gas for heating or cooking, own faulty electrical appliances, or light bonfires. Let these people burn.

Abolish the military and police. Anyone who can't defend his own property deserves to lose it. They shouldn't own so much stuff anyhow.

	08-08-2003 15:39									#376
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy The teenage-mother problem won't be that huge if we would tell the teenagers to handle sex more seriously.

We share the same opinion about it, brother. However not regarding the on-topic issue which was abortion.

	08-08-2003 16:06									#377
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spoiler(highlight to read): ...shaking my ejaculation off inside your sister...

	10-08-2003 06:23									#378
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If it gets ratified that my embryo has the same rights I do, then it should get the fvck out of my uterus and get its own goddam apartment and get a job.

I'm REFUSE to support it - I'd want an abortion, but OOOOOooOOOOOh NOOOO - some a55hole decides that after he sticks his **** somewhere that everything that comes out afterwards is his.

Out of spite, I'd sh1t the little monster out and send it to live with its biological Dad.

Well, here ya go. *POOF!*

How's that prostate feeling now? Gosh, that sure is going to hurt on the way out, huh?

	10-08-2003 09:59									#379
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quote: everything that comes out afterwards is his.

I think you meant to say ours? On the other hand you did not want it he did, his by right of care, compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts let alone humanitarianism. The basic things your comment lacks...I would say he is off to the right start of a great parent you? Of course you have rights too, but at this point it is a two to one vote...

quote: Out of spite, I'd sh1t the little monster out and send it to live with its biological Dad.

I am sure if the father was caring enough to fight an up hill battle for the right of his unborn child. You would have made this father the happiest person in the world. I am also sure his soon to be human child will reap the rewards of such an outstanding human care giver, (parent) you?

I am also sure if you reiterated those comments you made here in front of any doctor you would be spending some time in a special ward during and after the s*itting. On the other hand comments like this make the perfect pro abortion poster ads...Include you picture ok?

I for one, simply can not understand anyone who would want to kill off thier sibblings... Be it born or not, to me it shows a complete lack of compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts let alone humanitarianism. It takes a special person to do those things. First thing is you have be able to think of someone other than yourself...

It takes care, compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts to see a birth though let alone raise the child. If people lack these skills they can be aquired. If they refuse to aquire them, then by all means please wear a condom and use the pill... We have enough parasites and animals in the world let alone uncaring parents. Parents in this meaning is simply the wrong word to use...Back to parisites and animals...

Parisites, animals give it a break when science creates a parasite in a human womb and it grows into a parasite-human I'll believe you. When science see's a woman or a man for that matter drop out a calf-human, I'll say animal, your right. Until then you have a man a woman creating a child. A human being... From the onset, that is what will you get, that is what will it will be.

To kill a human is murder regardless of the stage of maturity or immaturity. Call it what you will to justify your convictions, beliefs, it is murder of an unborn human period.

Parasites Look around people how many full grown parasites did you meet today. Several I bet... It's the human way.....Look to politics if you missed one. Do we have to go into animals of society? Read the paper...Bottom line is they are human, from conception to death they are humans...

	10-08-2003 17:39									#380
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quote: Originally posted by blackice To kill a human is murder regardless of the stage of maturity or immaturity. Call it what you will to justify your convictions, beliefs, it is murder of an unborn human period.

Yet another anti-abortionist that denies the very valid arguements which have been put forward regarding the future prospectives after the birth of the child and the impact on the surroundings and the society. Please, stop throwing those moral issue notes at pro-abortionists as you now again fail to discuss it on the same practical level as we. What's the point in staying to issue #1 as Spiffor ranked it?

	10-08-2003 18:31									#381
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quote: Originally posted by blackice quote: everything that comes out afterwards is his. I think you meant to say ours? On the other hand you did not want it he did, his by right of care, compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts let alone humanitarianism. The basic things your comment lacks...I would say he is off to the right start of a great parent you? Of course you have rights too, but at this point it is a two to one vote... quote: Out of spite, I'd sh1t the little monster out and send it to live with its biological Dad. I am sure if the father was caring enough to fight an up hill battle for the right of his unborn child. You would have made this father the happiest person in the world. I am also sure his soon to be human child will reap the rewards of such an outstanding human care giver, (parent) you? I am also sure if you reiterated those comments you made here in front of any doctor you would be spending some time in a special ward during and after the s*itting. On the other hand comments like this make the perfect pro abortion poster ads...Include you picture ok? I for one, simply can not understand anyone who would want to kill off thier sibblings... Be it born or not, to me it shows a complete lack of compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts let alone humanitarianism. It takes a special person to do those things. First thing is you have be able to think of someone other than yourself... It takes care, compassion, concern, love and natural parental instincts to see a birth though let alone raise the child. If people lack these skills they can be aquired. If they refuse to aquire them, then by all means please wear a condom and use the pill... We have enough parasites and animals in the world let alone uncaring parents. Parents in this meaning is simply the wrong word to use...Back to parisites and animals... Parisites, animals give it a break when science creates a parasite in a human womb and it grows into a parasite-human I'll believe you. When science see's a woman or a man for that matter drop out a calf-human, I'll say animal, your right. Until then you have a man a woman creating a child. A human being... From the onset, that is what will you get, that is what will it will be. To kill a human is murder regardless of the stage of maturity or immaturity. Call it what you will to justify your convictions, beliefs, it is murder of an unborn human period. Parasites Look around people how many full grown parasites did you meet today. Several I bet... It's the human way.....Look to politics if you missed one. Do we have to go into animals of society? Read the paper...Bottom line is they are human, from conception to death they are humans...

	10-08-2003 19:11									#382
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Just so we're completely clear with the pro-lifers here: abstract comparison time! if one day you, the pro-lifer reading this, and I were to wake up in bed together with no memory or evidence of the previous night whatsoever other than the presence of a couple of used condom on the floor, and you discovered that somehow our bodies had become hooked up so that I was using all of your vital organs to sustain myself and I would surely die if I was removed... would it be murder for you to remove me from your body?

Yes, it would. Of course, there has never been a precident for this hypothetical case. There have been cases in which Siamese twins have undergone surgical seperation even though it was clear that one would not be viable, however in those circumstances you'll find that the likelihood for survival of both without surgical seperation was very low.

	10-08-2003 22:04									#383
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I'm not interested in having ANY kids, EVER.

You 'fathers' can take all your little abortions and be as righteous and kind as you want, but you can just leave me the **** out of it. I want no part of your bullshit.

If that makes me a Dowager queen - well, better a dowager than chained down having my liver picked apart by ****ing VULTURES for ALL ETERNITY.

If some man ever really loved me, he'd respect EVERY WORD I'VE SAID AS THE ****ING GOSPEL. That's why I know I've NEVER been in love. I've NEVER met ANYONE even REMOTELY like that, EVER.

I probably never will. Which means, of course, that there's a chance.

Surely you must be dead, Mr. Feynman?

	10-08-2003 23:51									#384
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Fair point

	10-08-2003 23:56									#385
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin I'm not interested in having ANY kids, EVER. You 'fathers' can take all your little abortions and be as righteous and kind as you want, but you can just leave me the **** out of it. I want no part of your bullshit. If that makes me a Dowager queen - well, better a dowager than chained down having my liver picked apart by ****ing VULTURES for ALL ETERNITY. If some man ever really loved me, he'd respect EVERY WORD I'VE SAID AS THE ****ING GOSPEL. That's why I know I've NEVER been in love. I've NEVER met ANYONE even REMOTELY like that, EVER. I probably never will. Which means, of course, that there's a chance. Surely you must be dead, Mr. Feynman?

Judging by the degree of thought disorder manifest in your posting all of us here at Apolyton agree that it would indeed be preferrable that you not procreate, as there is considerable evidence that that sort of thing is transmitted genetically.
Have you ever considered sealing your resolve with a surgical procedure?

	11-08-2003 00:09									#386
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless How far do you want to take this?

Your examples (And mine) are too extreme for people to really consider. Here's a simple one: if people who have sex are consenting to the consequences of sex, then they are not only consenting to have a baby, but also to being infected with any STD's present in their sexual partner.

This would bring us to the rather bizarre stage where it would not only be illegal to have an abortion as the whore (Or "woman", as us pro-choicers refer to people with unwanted pregnancies) consented to the pregnancy, but also to any STD's that could kill the foetus before birth if not treated; and they couldn't be treated as she knew the risks and must live with the consequences of her actions.

	11-08-2003 00:15									#387
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Your examples (And mine) are too extreme for people to really consider. Here's a simple one: if people who have sex are consenting to the consequences of sex, then they are not only consenting to have a baby, but also to being infected with any STD's present in their sexual partner. This would bring us to the rather bizarre stage where it would not only be illegal to have an abortion as the whore (Or "woman", as us pro-choicers refer to people with unwanted pregnancies) consented to the pregnancy, but also to any STD's that could kill the foetus before birth if not treated; and they couldn't be treated as she knew the risks and must live with the consequences of her actions.

Fetuses aren't a disease. If they are, what does that make you?

	11-08-2003 00:23									#388
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No, foetuses aren't a disease (And I find descriptions of them as parasites equally disturbing; plus I was always under the impression that parasitism only occurs between organisms of differing species); this is why the way it's looked at as an issue of consent and responsibility is stupid in my eyes; it should be about whether the foetus is worth protecting like a born human, or if it's as expendable as a disease.

If someone just says "You spread your legs, now deal with the consequences", they're clearly using the issue to punish women for having sex. That should not be the issue.

	11-08-2003 00:37									#389
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the thread title says: indisputable facts...

	11-08-2003 00:59									#390
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Doc: too much rhetoric for my taste. Go be a senator.

Gibsie: GROW THE FVCK UP. Parasites come in ALL shapes, sizes, and species, parTICularly and ESPECIALLY the HUMAN species.

It's obvious I'm the only woman here, because I'm the only one not blaming a 'whore' for 'spreading her legs' in the first place, and I'm not condemning her to have to 'deal with the consequences,' despite there being an additional absent party involved.

Evidence? Thank goodness for DNA testing. SOMEONE'S gonna have to own up once they're tracked down. It's a lot more persistent than people give it credit - DNA can persist in vivo (i.e. inside a living organism) for YEARS, even sperm.

Of course, if she was masturbating and somehow became pregnant, I could understand that some sort of dilemma had occurred, but otherwise, doesn't it take two (2) to tango? And even if the 'immaculate conception' DID take place - see above about DNA evidence.