05-08-2003 18:05									#271
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Erm, not precisely Asuka

But I'd like to see us discussing about the real issue behind abortion, rather than being dragged into the anti-choicer's trap.

You don't have to chant girl power to be pro-choice. You merely have to be interested in the actual living conditions of people past birth: mother, father, siblings, and the unwanted child itself. And this is what abortion is really about. This is why abortion exists at all.

	05-08-2003 19:44									#272
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka So what if you read the entire thread, where I time and again established the fact that we are DEALING WITH MAJORITY ISSUE here - rather than the exceptions? That would have been helpful!

Translation: I know my position is inconsistent, so please debate me on terms where my argument might hold water.

Sorry, but your position was that a woman's choice to have sex tipped the balance in favor of putative fetal rights. I have pointed out to you that choice as the foundation for the superior moral claims of fetuses is insufficient to support the sort of strong pro-life position you claim. Thus your position is undermined.

quote: 1 - Simply because "you said so"? Gee, not even I am arrogant or delusional enough to arrive at the concrete conculsion of whether or not a fetus is always living. Given the significant opinion chance that it is (which you can and have NOT disproved) - YOU DON'T RISK MURDER

Next time, jackass, read the previous posts in the thread. I had explained my position earlier. Moreover, don't elide 'living' with 'human' as you do here. Yes, a fetus is living. So what? At some point, I had strep throat as a kid. The bacteria were alive before I killed them with drugs. A fetus is a developmental stage of a human as I wrote earlier - it is in the process of becoming human - and its humanity increases during gestation (for you logic types, I am treating 'human' as a fuzzy predicate here.)

quote: 2 - In this case - A woman's right to control her body for 9 months after impregnating herself outweighs the rights of life of another. That's wonderful, thanks for coming out.

This sounds good, if a fetus is human. But even if a fetus is human, yes, the right to control one's own body is greater.

Assume that without a kidney transplant I will die. Turns out we have a tissue match and you are the only available donor. You can live perfectly well with only one kidney. Should it be permissable for your kidney to be taken against your will in order to save my life? I'm going to have to say no to this - you have a right to keep your kidney even if it means my death. Or do you think kidneys should be stolen to save others?

Now your little point about "its only control of you body versus a life" doesn't seem so hot, does it?

	05-08-2003 20:16									#273
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quote: Most anti-choice people I have met (there are exceptions) are also pro-death penalty. One cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty simultaneously. Should I call them pro-fetus?

This line of reasoning then assumes that 'pro-choice' means that you are for a choice in every single situation. Do you believe a criminal should have a choice to go to jail? That reasoning leads to absurdity.

pro-life and pro-choice are simply confined to the abortion debate and don't go beyond that.

	05-08-2003 20:38									#274
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I would also question the appropriateness of "pro-life" for many within the abortion debate.

I'm thinking of the "Jodie and Mary" siamese twins case. While many individual "pro-lifers" saw the logic of separating them, causing the death of one to save the other, various "pro-life" organizations wanted no intervention: in effect, they became pro-death, seeking the death of both.

Interestingly, it turned out that the parents' motive for opposing the operation WAS that they wanted both to die: they didn't want a handicapped daughter, they wanted a "Catholic abortion" of both.

You could almost hear the "pro-life" spokespeople struggling NOT to use the phrase "God's will".

	05-08-2003 21:19									#275
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how does that post have anything to do with the topic?

Jon Miller

	05-08-2003 21:22									#276
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor You don't have to chant girl power to be pro-choice.

Sorry, I was just joking. And yes, I do understand the real issue. Didn't have time to write my serious post yet, but will do so ASAP.

	05-08-2003 21:32									#277
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Most anti-choice people I have met (there are exceptions) are also pro-death penalty. One cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty simultaneously. Should I call them pro-fetus? This line of reasoning then assumes that 'pro-choice' means that you are for a choice in every single situation. Do you believe a criminal should have a choice to go to jail? That reasoning leads to absurdity. pro-life and pro-choice are simply confined to the abortion debate and don't go beyond that.

Yeah right. Trying to shut out the cognitive dissonace. The fact is, being against abortion on the grounds that life is sacred or whatever is incompatible with being pro-death penalty. While I am willing to engage in serious discussion with people who view life as sacred and do so consistently, I am not interested in arguing with anti-woman religious zealots who only care about fetuses insofar as said fetuses can be used to steal the rights of women to control their reproductive capacity.

Frankly, if one isn't consistent in their positions, this is evidence that they are the boring Taliban-type (Christian, Muslim, whatever superstition one prefers) of woman-hater/man-insecure-with-penis-size. As George Carlin once put it - republicans want live fetuses so they can grow up to be dead soldiers.

	05-08-2003 21:47									#278
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Well, I think that something's a human being when it knows it is sentient. An 11 week-old fetus isn't aware of its own existence.

And besides, killing it in the early stages is the humane thing to do.... its a shame when we let them slip by and be actually born... put it out of its misery before it has a chance to see what misery is.

I'm not pro-choice, I'm pro-abortion.

	05-08-2003 21:51									#279
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I know of no person who wishes they were aborted

Jon Miller

	05-08-2003 22:03									#280
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There are those days when I wish I had been... and today (as you can tell) is one of those days.

And if there is no one who wishes they had been aborted, it is only because they have had the chance to live... but honestly, in a world as craptacular as this one, wouldn't it just be easier if we'd never set foot on it at all?

I'm also a proponent of the Nuke the World campaign in case you didn't know...

Still waiting for that asteroid....

	06-08-2003 00:44									#281
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II There are those days when I wish I had been... and today (as you can tell) is one of those days.

Poor muffin. Know what the logical advice is for this situation? (It has to do with your own life, not the estimated lives of unborn others)

quote: I'm also a proponent of the Nuke the World campaign in case you didn't know... Still waiting for that asteroid....

Oh yes, humanity deserves death. Again, after you - as*hole.

	06-08-2003 00:48									#282
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quote: Originally posted by Asuka quote: so to avoid the inconvenience of unwanted children u would rather just terminate them. You mean that I would become a craddle snatcher and suffocate all "unwanted" children? And please use more well written English in order to make your message abit more clear.

yes but u still would decide to kill the children based on the fact that u didn't want them. I realize that u r able to kill children in the womb and not ones already born. its very common in humanity. killing a man w/ a knife is harder than dropping a bomb on him from an f 16.

	06-08-2003 00:53									#283
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Yeah right. Trying to shut out the cognitive dissonace. The fact is, being against abortion on the grounds that life is sacred or whatever is incompatible with being pro-death penalty. While I am willing to engage in serious discussion with people who view life as sacred and do so consistently, I am not interested in arguing with anti-woman religious zealots who only care about fetuses insofar as said fetuses can be used to steal the rights of women to control their reproductive capacity. Frankly, if one isn't consistent in their positions, this is evidence that they are the boring Taliban-type (Christian, Muslim, whatever superstition one prefers) of woman-hater/man-insecure-with-penis-size. As George Carlin once put it - republicans want live fetuses so they can grow up to be dead soldiers.

I don't think its all that hard to hold life as precious yet still have room for the death penalty. perhaps if u thot about it more u could also see this.

	06-08-2003 00:55									#284
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Frankly, if one isn't consistent in their positions, this is evidence that they are the boring Taliban-type (Christian, Muslim, whatever superstition one prefers) of woman-hater/man-insecure-with-penis-size. As George Carlin once put it - republicans want live fetuses so they can grow up to be dead soldiers.

All because you say so! Indeed, I HATE WOMEN, AND IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT. Put yourself in a situation where you have to ethically decide over an abortion yet at the same time don't at all want the child who you admit fault for, then we'll see who's "anti woman" and rather who's "anti themselves" in accepting like suffering in avoiding what essentially could be death.

...and George Carlin? OH MAN HAHAHA HE IZ REAL FUNNY - Only if you're a f*cking unaccomplished loser who needs reasons to hate and blame the successful and realistic conservative world around you. Unreal, you've gained Urban Ranger like respect in a few short posts. That's ok - because all I'm harbouring is resentment towards women. "Taliban" is such a nice cliche to throw around for the pathetically inadequate

	06-08-2003 00:59									#285
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quote: The fact is, being against abortion on the grounds that life is sacred or whatever is incompatible with being pro-death penalty.

Actually it isn't. There is this whole thing about guilt/innocence you are totally ignoring.

quote: this is evidence that they are the boring Taliban-type (Christian, Muslim, whatever superstition one prefers) of woman-hater/man-insecure-with-penis-size. As George Carlin once put it - republicans want live fetuses so they can grow up to be dead soldiers.

Resorting to ad hominums because you can't prove your point? Very bad form .

The fact is if you cannot understand the other side without resorting to name calling, then you are simply an ideologue who really hasn't thought things through. Knowing and respecting the other side's arguments is fundamental for a good understanding of the issue (any issue).

	06-08-2003 01:03									#286
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar I am not interested in arguing with anti-woman religious zealots who only care about fetuses insofar as said fetuses can be used to steal the rights of women to control their reproductive capacity.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA I missed this gem, thanks!!! Hey everyone - MISTAR TEMPLAR SUMS UP OPPOSITION ARGUMENT after taking women/victim studies and severe blows to the head for several years strsight. Let's look at that again:

quote: anti-woman religious zealots who only care about fetuses insofar as said fetuses can be used to steal the rights of women to control their reproductive capacity.

Indeed! The man just wants to chain her down with fetuses, is all. George Carlin says so, and I was even friends with a girl, once!

hehehehe, please continue - buddy

	06-08-2003 01:04									#287
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka All because you say so! Indeed, I HATE WOMEN, AND IT'S ALL THEIR FAULT. Put yourself in a situation where you have to ethically decide over an abortion yet at the same time don't at all want the child who you admit fault for, then we'll see who's "anti woman" and rather who's "anti themselves" in accepting like suffering in avoiding what essentially could be death.

If I have to decide about abroting an unwanted child I'm at fault for, I'll discuss with the mother to reach a consensus. Depending on the circumstances and of the possible consequences of the pregnancy & brith, we'll decide together for or against an abortion.

How anti-woman of me.

(BTW, I am pretty much in the situation where I wouldn't call for abortion: my studies are almost over, and I should have no trouble finding a stable job with them. My family can support me during the transition time. Such can not be said about my gf however, since she is following "swim or drown" studies, and a pregnancy would ruin it definitely. I'm sure she'd be far more eager for abortion than myself)

	06-08-2003 01:04									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Resorting to ad hominums because you can't prove your point? Very bad form . The fact is if you cannot understand the other side without resorting to name calling, then you are simply an ideologue who really hasn't thought things through. Knowing and respecting the other side's arguments is fundamental for a good understanding of the issue (any issue).

Thanks Imran. I feel bad enough doing so in response, but he's just so cute! NOW GET U AND YER FETUS BACK IN THE KITCHEN AND BAKE ME A F*CKING PIE WHILE SCRUBBING THE FLOOR NAKED

	06-08-2003 01:07									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If I have to decide about abroting an unwanted child I'm at fault for, I'll discuss with the mother to reach a consensus. Depending on the circumstances and of the possible consequences of the pregnancy & brith, we'll decide together for or against an abortion. How anti-woman of me.

Oh gee! How anti woman of ME - because IT ACTUALLY F*CKING HAPPENED.

Guess what? I did exactly what you described, and she moved contrary to my opinion, with my support. I still hold myself equally responsible for conception, I still love her, and those will never change. Now what is all of this anti woman bullsh*t, again?

	06-08-2003 01:12									#290
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I supposed that your conceptions about pregnancy directly came for this story, but I had forgotten if there were followings or not.

Besides, I didn't understand you post well... Did she move to a place far away from you ? Did she decide to raise the kid alone ?

	06-08-2003 01:14									#291
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quote: Oh yes, humanity deserves death. Again, after you - as*hole.

Somebody's wound just a LEEETTLE too tight today....

	06-08-2003 01:19									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I supposed that your conceptions about pregnancy directly came for this story, but I had forgotten if there were followings or not. Besides, I didn't understand you post well... Did she move to a place far away from you ? Did she decide to raise the kid alone ?

My views came well before this, hence my own decision... and hers?

ABORT

	06-08-2003 01:20									#293
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Somebody's wound just a LEEETTLE too tight today....

I'm just a LEEETTLE too tired of dealing with 14 year olds who should go back listening to their GOTH/INDY/FREEDOM/METAL and wishing death on the world, actually.

	06-08-2003 01:20									#294
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Spiffor:

It's a common tactic to use testimonies to sway the debate, so let's have a look at your example.

quote: With her first boyfriend, she became pregnant once (at 18 or so) without agreement of the boyfriend. Since he was not going to marry her anytime soon, and since a continued pregnancy would mean for them to break up, she finally gave in and aborted. It was a trauma and she swore never to abort again.

What about adoption? If the father won't accept his responsibilities, and the mother cannot take care of her child on her own, they should give the child to those who will be able to take care of her.

Secondly, how can a woman get pregnant 'without the agreement of the boyfriend'? Did she lie to her first boyfriend about being on the pill?


So the situation at this point is:

quote: - this girl spends her whole energy raising her 7 months-old baby and studying. She sleeps fewer than 6 hours a night, 7/7. - this girl is in a sentimental wreckage. She longs for her old boyfriend as well as for the 'passerby' from two year ago, while ****ging another (manipulable because geeky and previously virgin) guy. She also ****s random men from time to time. That doesn't require any energy: she revolves in a geeky circle of friends, and her openness attracted men to her, not the other way around. - This girl is in serious financial trouble. She has an overpriced flat, but she cannot move in another cheaper suburbian town, because she'd lose her precious priority at the kindergarten. She has no time to look for practical solutions. - This girl is exhausted and regularily cries on my shoulder. At that point, she barely eats to be able to feed her kid, because of money shortage. - This girl is pregnant.

If you care so much for this girl, why didn't you try to find some help for her financially? Secondly, again if she cannot take care of her child, she should give her child up for adoption. Why is this not an option?

quote: There was no way for me to allow her to throw her life, the life of her daughter, the life of the upcoming kid, and the life of her lover down the gutter.

Down the gutter? How would adoption cause any of these things? If the life was so good in the first place, why did a pregnancy cause so many problems?

quote: because her burden was alleviated.

Could none of this happen if the child were born? None of this seems to have anything to do with the abortion. You need to make a better connection.

	06-08-2003 01:22									#295
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quote: I'm just a LEEETTLE too tired of dealing with 14 year olds who should go back listening to their GOTH/INDY/FREEDOM/METAL and wishing death on the world, actually.

Apparently too tired to read as well!

	06-08-2003 01:23									#296
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abortion is just a slap in the face to all of those people who want children, but cannot have them.

not that I think it should be illegal. I support early abortions.

	06-08-2003 01:24									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor If I have to decide about abroting an unwanted child I'm at fault for, I'll discuss with the mother to reach a consensus. Depending on the circumstances and of the possible consequences of the pregnancy & brith, we'll decide together for or against an abortion. How anti-woman of me. (BTW, I am pretty much in the situation where I wouldn't call for abortion: my studies are almost over, and I should have no trouble finding a stable job with them. My family can support me during the transition time. Such can not be said about my gf however, since she is following "swim or drown" studies, and a pregnancy would ruin it definitely. I'm sure she'd be far more eager for abortion than myself)

spiffor u know there is such a thing as adoption. I know u think being an orphan "sucks." but never having gotten a chance to live or decide sucks a lot more.

	06-08-2003 01:25									#298
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quote: Originally posted by Dom Pedro II Apparently too tired to read as well!

You mean to read this?:

quote: There are those days when I wish I had been... and today (as you can tell) is one of those days. And if there is no one who wishes they had been aborted, it is only because they have had the chance to live... but honestly, in a world as craptacular as this one, wouldn't it just be easier if we'd never set foot on it at all? I'm also a proponent of the Nuke the World campaign in case you didn't know... Still waiting for that asteroid....

HI!

	06-08-2003 01:26									#299
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quote: but never having gotten a chance to live or decide sucks a lot more.

How does it suck a lot more?? If you never even KNEW you existed, how can it suck for you? It's much worse to have lived as an orphan than to never have lived at all.

	06-08-2003 01:27									#300
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No, actually, Zylka... I met to read my LOCATION. I'm two years younger than you... slightly less by 24 days actually.