05-08-2003 07:40									#181
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quote: Indeed, it's a badge of doing the right thing. I'd have been exactly as proud if I saved a baby from drowning in a swimming pool: definitely not something difficult or brave. But the right thing to do.

Ugh! If a mentally retarded man was going to kill family, I'd shoot him, but I wouldn't be PROUD! I just killed someone! It was a necessary evil!

quote: I hope some people will read this story, and will understand that abortion can be a great thing, because it can prevent much forseeable misery.

Ugh... Abortion is a last resort, a necessary evil, not simply birth control.

I believe YOU are the barbarian here .

	05-08-2003 07:51									#182
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Ugh... Abortion is a last resort, a necessary evil, not simply birth control.

I fully agree. Actually, I did go to the drug dealer to get the morning-over pill (40 minutes walking and about 30 minutes waiting for the store to open thankyouverymuch), because when she was alone, she didn't dare to enter the store.
The fact that I had to go there only after being warned of her failure to get it by herself sure belated the ingurgitation of the pill bigtime. I suppose that's why it didn't work.
And no, there has never been anything sexual between us, so I couldn't help to prevent her getting pregnant prior

quote: I believe YOU are the barbarian here .

AHAH ! I now have proof that you are brainwashed by FoxNews !

	05-08-2003 08:52									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Eh? Why can't a pro-life person not win at the stage 2 argument if the fetus is say 8 months along and declared to be a human being, and by C-section can be taken out of the woman on that instance? This I don't understand.

Because, you have just described a pro-choice position - i.e. the legal protection of viable fetuses without protecting non-viable fetuses.

quote: Oh, and by calling your opponents 'anti-' something, you leave yourself open to the same treatment (ie, any pro-lifer would be definetly justified to refer to you as pro-death).

Most anti-choice people I have met (there are exceptions) are also pro-death penalty. One cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty simultaneously. Should I call them pro-fetus?

	05-08-2003 09:29									#184
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar Most anti-choice people I have met (there are exceptions) are also pro-death penalty. One cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty simultaneously. Should I call them pro-fetus?

Maybe they're "pro-life until you set your mother on fire and/or blow several 7 year old girls heads off with a shotgun"? Have any fetuses ever done that? Just checking!

	05-08-2003 09:34									#185
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...by the way, I'm against the death penalty as well - so save your breathe and add another to the "exception".

	05-08-2003 09:44									#186
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka ...by the way, I'm against the death penalty as well - so save your breathe and add another to the "exception".

I don't know you. But that is a consistent position.

As for a guy who blows my family away - we've got life in prison for that. As for fetuses, they are infringing on the reproductive rights of women (if the woman does not want the fetus). Unfortunately, if the fetus is non-viable, it wont survive eviction. Do you have a point?

	05-08-2003 09:50									#187
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How far exactly is this going to go? Are there going to be 'zygote rights', and pre-mitotic gamete segregation?

Honestly, if guys were given the right, they'd give a vote to each and every new sperm cell they meiose.

	05-08-2003 09:53									#188
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin How far exactly is this going to go? Are there going to be 'zygote rights', and pre-mitotic gamete segregation? Honestly, if guys were given the right, they'd give a vote to each and every new sperm cell they meiose.

nice hyperbole but I think the pro life ppl only consider it after fertilization. since its like the hammer has been started on the clock.

	05-08-2003 09:58									#189
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar As for a guy who blows my family away - we've got life in prison for that. As for fetuses, they are infringing on the reproductive rights of women (if the woman does not want the fetus). Unfortunately, if the fetus is non-viable, it wont survive eviction. Do you have a point?

My point is - the fetus did not "choose" to create itself, the host did so through carelessness. If the woman did not want the fetus "infringing on her reproductive rights", SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE SPREAD HER LEGS

It's a little too late to decide when the course of action is possibly murder. Do we need to go over the argument a 5th time to get it through your head?

	05-08-2003 10:01									#190
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Damn right Z, now why aren't you on AIM or ICQ?

	05-08-2003 10:07									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka My point is - the fetus did not "choose" to create itself, the host did so through carelessness. If the woman did not want the fetus "infringing on her reproductive rights", SHE SHOULDN'T HAVE SPREAD HER LEGS

This is the dead givaway that you are merely anti-woman. Putting aside the right of women to enjoy sex ...

So what if a woman is raped? She didn't "spread her legs" in that case, but then again, the fetus did not "choose" to create itslef. What then? Force the woman to carry a child that did not result from her choices? Your moral arguments seemed based on choice. Allow the fetus to be "killed" because their was no choice on the part of the woman? Well, that's not really pro-life is it if you honestly care about fetuses ...

quote: It's a little too late to decide when the course of action is possibly murder. Do we need to go over the argument a 5th time to get it through your head?

It's not murder. I (1) deny that the fetus is human. (2) even if the fetus were human, a woman's right to contol her body and reproductive capacity would outweigh any rights the fetus would have. How many times do I need to repeat these points before you get them through your head. You have failed to establish fetuses are human, and you have failed to balanc the rights of women. This choice thing doesn't cut it because it fails to adress the right of a woman to control her own body.

	05-08-2003 10:09									#192
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I AM ANTI WOMAN

DISCUSSION OVER!!!

	05-08-2003 10:10									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka It's a little too late to decide when the course of action is possibly murder. Do we need to go over the argument a 5th time to get it through your head?

quote: Originally posted by The Templar It's not murder. I (1) deny that the fetus is human. (2) even if the fetus were human, a woman's right to contol her body and reproductive capacity would outweigh any rights the fetus would have. How many times do I need to repeat these points before you get them through your head.

Do you now understand what I meant with "pointless debate" ?

	05-08-2003 10:13									#194
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quote: Originally posted by The Templar So what if a woman is raped? She didn't "spread her legs" in that case, but then again, the fetus did not "choose" to create itslef.

So what if you read the entire thread, where I time and again established the fact that we are DEALING WITH MAJORITY ISSUE here - rather than the exceptions? That would have been helpful!

quote: It's not murder. I (1) deny that the fetus is human. (2) even if the fetus were human, a woman's right to contol her body and reproductive capacity would outweigh any rights the fetus would have.

1 - Simply because "you said so"? Gee, not even I am arrogant or delusional enough to arrive at the concrete conculsion of whether or not a fetus is always living. Given the significant opinion chance that it is (which you can and have NOT disproved) - YOU DON'T RISK MURDER

2 - In this case - A woman's right to control her body for 9 months after impregnating herself outweighs the rights of life of another. That's wonderful, thanks for coming out.

	05-08-2003 10:18									#195
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And once again, Zylka blatantly ignores the very many circumstances that I cited repeatedly in which a woman can become pregnant even when she didn't intended to (i.e had protected sex / thought she had protected sex).

What I find most stupid is that Z is all 'blame the woman'. Yet apparently, the man shouldn't take responsability. Of course, it is only natural to a man to have recreative sex, while it is only natural to a woman to have reproductive sex I guess

	05-08-2003 10:22									#196
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor And once again, Zylka blatantly ignores the very many circumstances that I cited repeatedly in which a woman can become pregnant even when she didn't intended to (i.e had protected sex / thought she had protected sex). What I find most stupid is that Z is all 'blame the woman'. Yet apparently, the man shouldn't take responsability. Of course, it is only natural to a man to have recreative sex, while it is only natural to a woman to have reproductive sex I guess

HEY SPIFF - WHAT PERCENT CHANCE DO THESE CIRCUMSTANCES TOTAL?

HEY SPIFF, AS WELL - DID I NOT SAY THAT I'D LIKE TO TACKLE MAJORITY SITUATION FIRST, BEFORE THE FREAK-FIVE PERCENTILE

HI - WE'RE SPEAKING ENGLISH IN THIS THREAD!

	05-08-2003 10:24									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor What I find most stupid is that Z is all 'blame the woman'. Yet apparently, the man shouldn't take responsability. Of course, it is only natural to a man to have recreative sex, while it is only natural to a woman to have reproductive sex I guess

Of course the man should take equal responsibility, don't be a f*cking hack putting words in my mouth. Fortunately enough, the man don't have legal choice on whether or not to abort - and is not the primary opinion considered in most cases. Does this make any sense???

	05-08-2003 10:24									#198
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Zylka, your feelings on the subject would be exactly the same if you were a woman?

	05-08-2003 10:26									#199
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Zylka, your feelings on the subject would be exactly the same if you were a woman?

How could I ever logically answer that? How could you?

	05-08-2003 10:29									#200
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I can answer it easily. Yeah, if I was a woman, my position on abortion would be the same.

My point is, it's alot easier for you to tell someone else what to do, when it's something you're never going to have to really worry about.

	05-08-2003 10:30									#201
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Oh. So I, as well as the rest of the world, should sit back gayly and concern ourselves only with the allowance and consequences of our own actions?

What do you call that world, exactly?

	05-08-2003 10:33									#202
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I can answer it easily. Yeah, if I was a woman, my position on abortion would be the same.

Sorry - you can't answer that. A different body, brain and set of experiences leads to a different perception. If you believe you have an infinite gauge of response to perception pegged, you must be God.

	05-08-2003 10:33									#203
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You humans with your silly logic, while Kang and Kodos have each brought a board with a nail in it! KNEEL BEFORE US, PUNY MORTALS!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

	05-08-2003 10:35									#204
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"Oh. So I, as well as the rest of the world, should sit back gayly and concern ourselves only with the allowance and consequences of our own actions?
What do you call that world, exactly?"
Heaven

"you must be God."
ding ding ding! give the man a balloon. Don't get semantic on my, you ass, especially considering this seems to me just to be your 'token moral'.

	05-08-2003 10:40									#205
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No buddy. No matter what you say, you can not decide "what you would do" with an entirely different perception. I'm not getting semantic, I'm being realistic.

There will be no "If I was a woman, I would think the same" nor "If I was Hitler - I would have not started the war!". If you were anything but you, you wouldn't be you. If this isn't painfully obvious, I worry dearly for your future.

	05-08-2003 10:42									#206
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Dog is my copilot.

Bloody 'ell, where are me 'aitches goin'?

	05-08-2003 10:44									#207
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You're the one being unrealistic, sacrificing a woman's future so that some hypothetical human comes into a world that doesn't want it. And part of being human is the ability to imagine oneself in another's position. If you can't understand where others come from, their motivations, their hopes, their etcetera, and you can't calculate all that together, I worry for the future.

	05-08-2003 10:44									#208
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 "Oh. So I, as well as the rest of the world, should sit back gayly and concern ourselves only with the allowance and consequences of our own actions? What do you call that world, exactly?" Heaven

Ah. I hear heaven is lovely - with individuals running around (possibly) ruining or destroying existence for countless others (the examples are infinite) - yet it is only for them to decide their own right to do so and whether or not the consequences are other's business.

Semantics hurt, don't they. Furthermore, it looks like logic is the enemy of a sugar puff "the individual is always right, and has unlimited rights" Heaven.

	05-08-2003 10:45									#209
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka I AM ANTI WOMAN DISCUSSION OVER!!!

Well you've certainly alienated me now.

	05-08-2003 10:47									#210
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"(possibly)"