04-08-2003 06:12									#1
	Predictions of the 2004 campaign! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

With Howard Dean running for president, I fear one thing -- that some Republicans will resort to appealing to homophobia and hatred in the guise of "family values" in order to run a smear campaign against Howard Dean.

Something along this line:

"If you support preserving traditional family values, reelect Bush. If you wish to destroy traditional family values, elect Howard Dean -- the destroyer of family values."

I'm worried that some Republicans will appeal to homophobia and bigotry in the form of a smear campaign against Howard Dean.



Oh by the way -- I'm back from being banned for three days from Apolyton.



Does this mean that I belong to the "bad guys" club on Apolyton?

	04-08-2003 06:31									#2
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"Howard Dean -- the destroyer of family values." vs "George W. Bush -- the destroyer of terrorism."

tough decision

	04-08-2003 06:34									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Gangerolf "Howard Dean -- the destroyer of family values." vs "George W. Bush -- the destroyer of terrorism." tough decision

The decision will affect the lives of all Americans.

	04-08-2003 06:44									#4
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Think that's bad? Here's what Congressman George Smathers said about fellow Democrat Claude Pepper, when Peppers was challenging Smathers during the 1950 primary contest:

quote: Are you aware that the candidate is known all over Washington as a shameless extrovert? Not only that, but this man is reliably reported to have practiced nepotism with his sister-in-law and he has a sister who was once a wicked thespian in New York. He matriculated with co-eds at the University, and it is an established fact that before his marriage he habitually practiced celibacy.

Smathers won.

Source: http://www.afn.org/~afn62971/pepper.html

	04-08-2003 06:46									#5
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I don't think you'll see much in the way of a smear campaign on this issue. Most of the campaign, I think, will center on Iraq and the budget deficit.

Don't get me wrong, I think Dean will be attacked to some extent on the issue of homosexuality, but at the end of the day, the Bushies will probably want to stand on more solid ground.

	04-08-2003 07:26									#6
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That's assuming Dean DOES win. Newsweek, I believe, just ran a fun article about Dean and showing both sides, but in the end, it is basically says he ain't really that different from Bradley in 2000, Tsongas in 1992, or Anderson in 1980. Also some interesting stuff about how Vermonters, who are used to a centrist Dean, are shocked about this neo-populist stuff attached to him (kinda like how Gore went populist in 2000).

We should wonder how Bush will run against Kerry.... that may be a very tough election for the Bushies (they are secretly hoping Dean wins though... they are predicting 49 states if that happens ).

	04-08-2003 08:01									#7
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The problem Dean is going to have as an established contender is that he won't have the advantage of obscurity to hide his faults. He won't get away with another Meet the Press fiasco as the frontrunner.

	04-08-2003 08:06									#8
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Dean will do quite well because he understand something that the Democratic voters have been screaming for decades: you don't beat the Republicans by becoming the Republicans, you beat the Republicans by standing up and fighting them.

The best thing that can be said about a Democratic government, however, is that things probably won't get much worse. They certainly won't get any better. But even that's better than four more years of the phoney presidency.

	04-08-2003 08:10									#9
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Prediction: Bush will win.

	04-08-2003 08:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Dean will do quite well because he understand something that the Democratic voters have been screaming for decades

What democratic voters?

	04-08-2003 08:13									#11
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sky: If Kerry wins the Democratic nomination (which I assume he will), I think he'd definetly give Bush a good run. Maybe even win.

All the others? Not even close. Bush will cakewalk to victory against them.

	04-08-2003 08:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Prediction: Bush will win.

Even if he loses.

	04-08-2003 08:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Even if he loses.

huh?

Oh, some stupid crack about the 2000 election.

Notice that under the Constitution, BUSH was the winning candidate.

But of course, silly things like the Constitution aren't important.

	04-08-2003 08:20									#14
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I agree with Imran. Kerry's gonna get the nomination. Dean's role is to excite the Democratic base, which was massively disaffected from the party in ever greater numbers since 1994. Come Agust, Dean will do his duty and tell all his people to hold their nose and vote for Kerry, to save the Republic from the Republicans.

	04-08-2003 08:24									#15
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Democrats hope that Dean can get more Democratic base voters excited than Bradley did in 2000, and then turn them over to Kerry .

	04-08-2003 08:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker But of course, silly things like the Constitution aren't important.

Of course, the constitution is the Holy Book, and shouldn't be criticized even when it allows a president to win with fewer votes than his opponent.
Was this document made to be carved in stone for the millenia to come ? I don't think so, a constitution has to adapt with political realities of the time. The State big voters were a technical necessity when the founding fathers wrote the Con. because of the lack of communications. It has no usefulness today, but is kept because the constitution is holy and shouldn't be changed

	04-08-2003 08:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker huh? Oh, some stupid crack about the 2000 election. Notice that under the Constitution, BUSH was the winning candidate.

Only because SCOTUS interfered.

Anyway, many of the states are switching to proprietary touch screen voting systems that leave no paper trail. Most of the companies have very close ties to the Republican party. Given the massive voter fraud the Republicans engaged in, in 2000, it's not unreasonable to suspect that there will be a switcheroo this time. Because they are proprietary software and hardware systems, there is no independent verification that the software isn't rigged.

	04-08-2003 08:28									#18
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The smear campaign against Dean has already started from the right. I was watching Hardball today where this dumbass conservative talking head was telling Chris Matthews that Dean is a far leftist while citing Bush is a moderate. Matthews said, "What about Dean's campaign puts him on the far left?"... she of course had no answer... just like all the other talking heads.

	04-08-2003 08:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Of course, the constitution is the Holy Book, and shouldn't be criticized even when it allows a president to win with fewer votes than his opponent.

Actually, for Americans it is a sacred document. Technically, skywalker is correct, since, as arbiters of the Constitution, anything SCOTUS says is Constitutional, even if it goes against the very text of the Constitution. So depite the fact that their final ruling was unConstitutional, it was Constitutional.

However, the fact that the law was massively violated by the Florida Republicans means that they won illegally.

	04-08-2003 08:30									#20
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Only because SCOTUS interfered.

What do you mean, interfered? The case was BROUGHT TO THEM. It's their JOB to make decisions on cases brought before them. How do you think the situation would have been resolved otherwise? Plus, is it BAD if SCOTUS enforces the Constitution?

quote: Anyway, many of the states are switching to proprietary touch screen voting systems that leave no paper trail. Most of the companies have very close ties to the Republican party. Given the massive voter fraud the Republicans engaged in, in 2000, it's not unreasonable to suspect that there will be a switcheroo this time. Because they are proprietary software and hardware systems, there is no independent verification that the software isn't rigged.

What massive voter fraud? You mean besides the stuff engaged in equally by both sides?

	04-08-2003 08:33									#21
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quote: So depite the fact that their final ruling was unConstitutional

These damn lefties and their lack of understanding about the Constitution .

The ruling was Constitutional and was based on the 14th Amendment Equal Protection Clause, and was affirmed in a 7-2 judgment. The 5-4 was what to do about it. End recounts because the day of the judgement was the day the votes had to be certified under Florida law, or let them have another week (not that the equal protection problems could even begin to have been fixed by that point).

	04-08-2003 08:34									#22
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, for Americans it is a sacred document. Technically, skywalker is correct, since, as arbiters of the Constitution, anything SCOTUS says in Constitutional, even if it goes against the very text of the Constitution. So depite the fact that their final ruling was unConstitutional, it was Constitutional.

It was neither a violation of the letter nor intent of the law.

The ability for a President to win with less than 50% of the popular vote is a) inherent in the electoral college (don't say it's unconstitutional, it is PROVIDED FOR by the Constitution) b) intended by the writers of the Constitution. It was a compromise between having it determined completely by popular vote or having it determined completely by Congress. The former was championed more by federalists and the latter by those who supported states' rights more.

btw, how did they violate Florida law?

	04-08-2003 08:36									#23
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Only because SCOTUS interfered. What do you mean, interfered? The case was BROUGHT TO THEM. It's their JOB to make decisions on cases brought before them. How do you think the situation would have been resolved otherwise? Plus, is it BAD if SCOTUS enforces the Constitution?

The final case was not brought to them. They reached down and grabbed it (which is within their power), but did so in such a way as to ensure that regardless of how the ruling came out, cote counting could not continue in Florida.

quote: What massive voter fraud? You mean besides the stuff engaged in equally by both sides?

I know of no other state where 91,000 voters were illegally (and the State of Florida has admitted fault, in court) removed from the voter rolls, the majority of them Democratic voters. Furthermore, as of this writing, Bush has still not reinstated either those 91,000 voters, nor another 8,000 out-of-state felons whose voting rights were restored in the states where they committed their crimes. Despite being ordered by the courts in 1998, he hasn't restored them to the roles either. Finally, there were at least 3,000 illegal absentee ballots which were counted, most of them going to the Republicans. Jeb Bush and Kate Harris should be in jail.

	04-08-2003 08:38									#24
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Despite being ordered by the courts in 1998, he hasn't restored them to the roles either.

Ummm... in case you hadn't noticed, he wasn't president in 1998

	04-08-2003 08:39									#25
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he's talking about Jeb Bush, governor of Florida, skywalker.

	04-08-2003 08:40									#26
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quote: Jeb Bush and Kate Harris should be in jail.

Agreed... along with Antonin Scalia

	04-08-2003 08:40									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Sava he's talking about Jeb Bush, governor of Florida, skywalker.

Oh.

	04-08-2003 08:41									#28
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I really don't care that Bush won the electoral college, HE STILL LOST THE POPULAR VOTE! I don't give a ass about the EC, it is an outdated peice of sectionalist BS from the early days that the conservatives use to bloat thier power, since less populated states tend to be predomanitly conservative, that is why Shrub won the EC but lost the popular vote. I don't consider a prez to be ligitamite unless he/she wins the popular vote. F*CK WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS!

VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

	04-08-2003 08:41									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Agreed... along with Antonin Scalia

For doing what?

	04-08-2003 08:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Odin I really don't care that Bush won the electoral college, HE STILL LOST THE POPULAR VOTE! I don't give a ass about the EC, it is an outdated peice of sectionalist BS from the early days that the conservatives use to bloat thier power, since less populated states tend to be predomanitly conservative, that is why Shrub won the EC but lost the popular vote. I don't consider a prez to be ligitamite unless he/she wins the popular vote. F*CK WHAT THE CONSTITUTION SAYS! VIVA LA REVOLUCION!!!

**** the Constitution... from people who complain about the treatment of the Guantanamo prisoners