04-08-2003 20:25									#31
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quote: Yes DanS, spending is so low that half our army need to sit in Iraq peacekeeping and doing mop up, and that is in a state with a relatively friendly population: not one were we face widespread popular resistance.

Well, this would argue that there is no pax Americana. I might agree with this, by the way.

quote: And the American people are not willing to spend much more of a percentage a year.

And why should they? It is not required. They know that. Clinton knew that. Even Rummy and the neocons know it.

The argument in the US is whether to spend 3.25% of our economy on defense or 3.5%-3.75% of our economy on defense. It's no big argument.

	04-08-2003 20:29									#32
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, the cost is not increasing and it has been very modest for a decade.

Currently true because the US has no real rivals, a reasonable economic position and no need to drive forward on major military programs. Most of what is being done, new carriers for the Navy, F-22, JSF are replacement and updating of existing capability.

Should there be a more prolonged economic downturn combined with a real military challenge (not the ones the Pentagon keeps claiming to justify current expenditure) the the position may well not be so secure.

Could the US sustain a repeat of the Reagan era levels of defence expenditure?

	04-08-2003 20:30									#33
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America should encourage Democracy, but shouldn't attack and conquer other nations in attempts to spread it. Democracy only works when the people want it.

	04-08-2003 20:31									#34
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quote: Could the US sustain a repeat of the Reagan era levels of defence expenditure?

Sure. If it's required. But even Reagan spent relatively little on defense compared to his predecessors.

	04-08-2003 20:32									#35
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child ps- don't forget the use of client states that do most of the grim dirty work, like the many regimes supported in South and Central America,

Who in this hemisphere are still US boys for doing any dirty work?

quote: South East Asia and the Middle East.

They are nice places for bases, but the only US ally/boy with any real military capability is the Republic of Korea, and they have more concerns close to home.

	04-08-2003 20:36									#36
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We hear very little regarding the brutality of the Shahs rule, and the US was very pro-Shah (they installed him!) Iran is just another nation on a list of resource rich nations subjected to the basic formula:

Install-Purge-Capitalize-Oppress-Rinse&repeat.

There are many nations, [over 70] that have been subjected to this kind of thing, which is why I just can't seem to shut-up about it, no argument justifies it, you can't wash it into being in anyway moral or good, it's just capitalist-agenda power-freakery, so I really don't get how the sponsor of this is somehow transformed into the nation that loves freedom and democracy.

	04-08-2003 20:38									#37
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quote: Install-Purge-Capitalize-Oppress-Rinse&repeat.

OK. Now we get problem child's REAL agenda.

	04-08-2003 20:39									#38
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The end of the cold war should put an end to the US (and europe) supporting tin pot murderes

	04-08-2003 20:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Who in this hemisphere are still US boys for doing any dirty work? They are nice places for bases, but the only US ally/boy with any real military capability is the Republic of Korea, and they have more concerns close to home.

They all are, mostly wetwork is no longer necessary because that's mostly been done, but Latin American governments still mostly serve American corporate interests... take a look at some of the things going on in Venezuala and Guatamala right now. There is virtual child-slavery and massive depopulation for profit margins and industrial projects that won't benifit the local people. LA governments are in no position to look after the interests of their people (even those that are interested in doing so).

What do you think the Zapatistas are all about?

As for the ME, Kuwait, Saudi, Jordan... the governing elites of these nations all know who they depend on for survival. And if they need reminding they can look what happened to Iraq 'Under New Management'

	04-08-2003 20:48									#40
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quote: Originally posted by DanS OK. Now we get problem child's REAL agenda.

Hey, I never pretended my position... Do you think tinpot murderer regimes aren't really a big deal because American foreign policy is ultimately morally good, even though the evidence says overwise?

Anyway, I would argue that even Communism did not justify what was done to these countries, never did, it was even aknowledged at the height of the cold war that Soviet Russia had very realistic ideas about expanding or global domination, (that is 'not much'). It was always on the defensive, only gained Eastern Europe because of ww2. And considering China was communist and yet one of it's arch enemies...

The whole Communist threat thing was mostly used to disguise imperialism as 'defense', because the American public would'nt abide blah blah blah.

	04-08-2003 20:48									#41
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Politics - lesson 1. Get re-elected. Give the voters what they want.

lesson 2 - The voters want a reasonable economy and standard of living with decent education and prospects for their children.

lesson 3 - the world cake isn't big enough for everyone on the planet to have the same amount per head as european and US voters are used to.

lesson 4 - get your country's share any way you can that won't upset your domestic voters.

Always been like that, always will be.

	04-08-2003 20:56									#42
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Thank you Cerburus, a little honesty, so again I ask... why the bull about spreading freedom and democracy, when what they really mean is 'America First, Stamp on the Rest'. You see, it's the Lies that disgust me the most... specially when this extremely disingenuose image that is portrayed is perpetuated throughout Western media.

	04-08-2003 21:02									#43
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Thank you Cerburus, a little honesty, so again I ask... why the bull about spreading freedom and democracy, when what they really mean is 'America First, Stamp on the Rest'. You see, it's the Lies that disgust me the most... specially when this extremely disingenuose image that is portrayed is perpetuated throughout Western media.

lesson 4. It all helps keep the domestic voters happy.

It's not just the US by the way, a number of other countries, including the UK, are happy to hang on to Uncle Sam's coat tails on this, after all they get to benefit too.

	04-08-2003 21:06									#44
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Oh definately... so waitaminute- you've actually answered my question. Okay then.

Erm....

Right.

As you were.

	04-08-2003 21:09									#45
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So how come the American public swallow the propaganda!? They have the vote but they don't seem to mind the hundreds of thousands (millions by now) that have died at the long arms of their governments! And the millions that have been tortured, kidnapped and raped at the hands of those governments creations just so a few corpos and their flunkies can stay rich!

	04-08-2003 21:25									#46
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Death to America!

	04-08-2003 21:34									#47
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Nah, just... stop screwing with people from 'poorer' countries and let said countries use their natural resources to raise the lot of their masses even if they're not pro-capitalist, or don't offer open-door do-what-you-want to your corporations, while pretending that your all moral and good while screwing them thuroughly. And abit less of the spreading torture and dictatorships type stuff..... to America.

	04-08-2003 21:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child and in English that means...

According to free translations dot com it means "ability before laughing".

	04-08-2003 21:39									#49
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Hm, what an odd thing to say

	04-08-2003 21:48									#50
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Almost qweeglish.

It's intranslatable, but roughly means: "First you have to be able to do it, before we talk about you doing it."

	04-08-2003 21:57									#51
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quote: So how come the American public swallow the propaganda!? They have the vote but they don't seem to mind the hundreds of thousands (millions by now) that have died at the long arms of their governments! And the millions that have been tortured, kidnapped and raped at the hands of those governments creations just so a few corpos and their flunkies can stay rich!

It's missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms. You may point out all of the bad, but to me it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of successes in there too.

As for the corpos and their flunkies, many Americans believe that if their corpos are successful, the country will be successful. This is reasonable, given the social contract in the US of the last 95 years or so for corporate profits, and the last 70 years for a gov't social safety net.

	04-08-2003 22:13									#52
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"There are a lot of successes in there too."

Any in the 3rd world?

	04-08-2003 22:17									#53
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While a bit late on the multi-party democracy, South Korea and Taiwan definitely fit the bill. Let me think about some others.

	04-08-2003 22:26									#54
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Why South Korea and Taiwan? Just because they didn't become communist?

	04-08-2003 22:30									#55
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Strong US involvement and investment. Became capitalist. Became democracies. Went from 3rd world to 1st world standard of living.

	04-08-2003 22:34									#56
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Duh. That's an extremely lose standard. Also, what has it to do with a "missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms"? The US was happily cooperating with the KMT regime in Taiwan and SK's military rulers.

	04-08-2003 22:36									#57
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Chile

Cold war era, communist is enemy, natural reaction.
Also, claiming communists are "freely" elected is a bit of a strech, Communists seem to have problems with DEMOCRATIC matters like elections.

quote: Indonesia

See above.

quote: Iran

Part three of the Cold war.
You might want to take into account the Soviets invaded the northern half in WWII, and that 70% of the world's oil and natural gas is here.
Would it be in the best interest of the west for the Soviet Union to hold this?

quote: Iraq

This one is incorrect on your part, Iraq was a Soviet Client during Saddam's rise, and all through the Iran-Iraq war.

quote: Nicaragua

The cold war again, and we again have the problems od communists and so-called 'free elections.

You seem to view Communism through rose colored glasses.
It has never been pretty for anyone living under it, and to consistantly blame the USA for other nations governments is somewhat rediculous.
If the CIA overthrough a nation, nothing prevented the people from overthrowing the so-called US puppet.

	04-08-2003 22:37									#58
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Chris sighting.

+0

	04-08-2003 22:40									#59
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I am always here, I post in the draft thread every day.

Stopped in this thread because the Austrain minister of dis-information is up to his old tricks again.

	04-08-2003 22:46									#60
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Do you think tinpot murderer regimes aren't really a big deal because American foreign policy is ultimately morally good, even though the evidence says overwise?

US has no business supporting dictators in this day and age. Cold War was a different story.

quote: Anyway, I would argue that even Communism did not justify what was done to these countries, never did,

Gotta love 20/20 hindsight. "Whether you like it our not, history is on our side. We will bury you." - Nikita Khrushchev

Maybe you're not old enough to remember much of the Cold War, but I can assure you that it was a very serious and tense time in the world. AFAIK Moscow never sent us a "just kidding about the whole taking over the world thing."

quote: The whole Communist threat thing was mostly used to disguise imperialism as 'defense', because the American public would'nt abide blah blah blah.

Yes, that is the standard revisionist leftist crap circulating about these days. America = always bad. The truth is both sides infiltrated foreign gov'ts seeking to gain allies before the other side got a foothold. You call it imperialism but a lot of it was the paranoia of the day.