04-08-2003 15:45									#1
	Pax Americana Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the Project for a New American Century is all about America taking over the world? Do you think that American dominance world wide will make the Earth a better place to live... or is it something to be feared and avoided at all costs.

I of course have my own strong opinions on the matter, I'm sure you can guess what they are, but I am curious what American people think about their states designs for the futures of all nations (come to think of it I'm curious as to why the US public seems to buy the world-veiw it's fed). I know alot of Americans realy don't care what foreigners think of their country, but is that because they heartily agree with US foreign policy [America First stamp on the rest] or because they honeslty think US foreign policy is essentially benevolent...

If this thread just gets closed, that'll certainly do as an answer too I suppose. But I'm not just trolling, I really do want to know. In the UK alot of people just turn their brains off with the attitude
'I'll leave decisions like that [going to war etc] to my betters to decide, far be it for me to second guess the government, they know what they're doing, and they're doing it for our sake' which I think is a pretty negligent attitude for voters in a 'democracy' to take.

	04-08-2003 16:01									#2
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"Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the Project for a New American Century is all about America taking over the world?"

As an old german proverb says: "Können vor Lachen."

	04-08-2003 16:05									#3
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and in English that means...

	04-08-2003 16:08									#4
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In the past deference certainly was a problem in the UK, but I don't think this is the case now. Poll after poll showed that the British public was split on the issue of War .. and although I supported it, it was nothing to do with deference, and everything to do with believing it was right.

America has no manifest destiny, other than that which its people wish.

There is a huge difference between wanting all people to be free, and wanting to impose your rule on them. I think most americans wish for the first.

and in that, they will always have my support and good will.

	04-08-2003 16:17									#5
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Americans do care what people think of them, its just that they have a mental block when anyone says it possibly might not be the best country in every aspect in the world.

I also don't htink thay have any wish to rule other countries and since the end of the cold war I think they do actually want to encourage democracy. Of course they didn't use to do this and people have long memories

	04-08-2003 16:18									#6
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quote: Originally posted by The Viceroy In the past deference certainly was a problem in the UK, but I don't think this is the case now. Poll after poll showed that the British public was split on the issue of War .. and although I supported it, it was nothing to do with deference, and everything to do with believing it was right. America has no manifest destiny, other than that which its people wish. There is a huge difference between wanting all people to be free, and wanting to impose your rule on them. I think most americans wish for the first. and in that, they will always have my support and good will.

But that's not what their states foreign policy endorses, they consistantly work against that, a glance at the history of US involvement in SA, ME and South East Asia confirms that with depressing consistancy, which is what I don't get... how come most people in the US seem to defend that kind of thing... why do they buy the line? Is it because they really do think that whatever's done in the name of American dominance really does overide the human rights of people in other nations.

	04-08-2003 16:24									#7
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Give some examples (with a little more detail) and we can discuss them.

	04-08-2003 16:27									#8
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Well said Viceroy. I believe that is what most Americans want as well.

Many people say that Americans blindly follow the so called "military-industrial" complex. The truth is that most Americans share the same vision for the world that our government does. Freedom for all and the rule of law.

When it comes to crisis time in their country, the first question you hear on the street is "Where are the Americans?" People want help in overcoming oppression and America is where they turn. We are fortunate to be able to help. There will always be those who will resist freedom and we should make sure that we don't confuse the loud voice of the few with the desire for freedom that the majority have.

How can a desire for people to have the right of self determination ever be imperialism? This is propoganda from those who wish that they could impose their ideals on others and lament the fact that they have not the power to do so.

America does not always act with exactness and efficiency, but I believe that she acts with purpose...and that purpose is freedom and justice for all.

	04-08-2003 16:34									#9
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I think a useful parallel can be drawn with Pax Britannica 1815-1914.

Napoleonic wars = WW1/WW2

followed by

One military/economic power with global interests and reach beyond any possible rivals.

A military weapon with no real rival to secure that domination - Royal Navy 1805 to 1912 cf. current US military but an increasing cost to maintain that advantage.

A period of patriotic belief in the rightness of purpose - Victorian Britain cf. USA now and for the next decade.

I would not push the analogy too far but IMO Pax Americana is with us already, not in terms of direct control but in terms of global influence.

However I also think that within 50 years mounting military, political and economic costs will bring it to an end. There are plenty of countries and groups out there who will take american support and money now but will eventually bite the hand that is feeding them.

	04-08-2003 16:37									#10
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Chile, the overthrow of democraticaly elected Alende, and the installation of Pinoche, follwed by the internment and brutal killings and torturings of hundreds of thousands of leftists and students.

Indonesia, the overthow of Sukarno (wrong spelling I'm sure) who was a founding member of the Non-Aligned movement of developing world nations and persued nationalist interests (harnessing Indonesias resources for the benifit of Indonesian people, socialists policy etc, but not a communist or Soviet client orientated). This guy's government was overthrown with the aid of the CIA, who backed Sukarto, a militarist who proceeded to slaughter over 500, 000 'communist' civilians ticked off a list provided by the Americans. Indonsias sectors were then sold off to Western Corporate concerns, rubber, steel, the defence industry etc.

Iran. The brutal dictatorship of the Shar was one of the US's closest allies in the ME after Isreal. He brutaly oppressed his own people, and widened the gap between rich elite and the Iranian population using internal security services trained and backed by the Americans, French and Isrealis. When discontent grew, the US state heartily backed his use of force and torture to stay in power. When the Shar was finally overthrown, US policy then turned to Iraq to persue their interest, (aiding Saddam Hussein and the Ba'athists rise to power) were they were complicit in the invasion of Iran, and subsequent use of chemicla weapons etc gainst the Iranians and Kurds.

Nicaragua, where that countries attempts to persue policies that invested in the local infrastructure were against the interests of US corpos, the US then created and backed the notorious Contra group inassasinating teachers, doctors, coffeee farmers and local officials etc, untill the Nicaraguan government finally capitulated to US demands.

I could go on but... all this information and more details (and sources) are easily available in many books in any library.... actually I don't know how easy this information is availble in the States.

	04-08-2003 16:46									#11
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 ... How can a desire for people to have the right of self determination ever be imperialism? This is propoganda from those who wish that they could impose their ideals on others and lament the fact that they have not the power to do so. ...

The fact is the US consistantly opposes the initiatives of indiginous people persuing nationalist goals that seek to benifit their own nation first, and favours corporate interests and the small elites in those nations that also benifit from US corporate interests. Somehow the US public seems oblivious to this, and actually believes their government stands for the exact opposit of what it actually persues.

One document written in the 40's, after WW2 actually states that

'We [the US] costitute 6 percent of the worlds population, yet now control 85 percent of it's recources, our job now is to ensure that this state of affairs continues'

I can source this more accurately later, but this attitude is by no means what I would call consistant with freedom and democrac in the world. It is however an attitude that US governments have worked to ever since.

	04-08-2003 16:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV I think a useful parallel can be drawn with Pax Britannica 1815-1914. Napoleonic wars = WW1/WW2 followed by One military/economic power with global interests and reach beyond any possible rivals. A military weapon with no real rival to secure that domination - Royal Navy 1805 to 1912 cf. current US military but an increasing cost to maintain that advantage. A period of patriotic belief in the rightness of purpose - Victorian Britain cf. USA now and for the next decade. I would not push the analogy too far but IMO Pax Americana is with us already, not in terms of direct control but in terms of global influence. However I also think that within 50 years mounting military, political and economic costs will bring it to an end. There are plenty of countries and groups out there who will take american support and money now but will eventually bite the hand that is feeding them.

I agree with this, it is the US tax payer that pays the mounting costs, WHY AREN'T THEY COMPLAINING!? is this why they are led to believe what they (generaly) believe, so they don't resist feeding the Complex?

I also think that Pax Americana has been with us for a while now, in my opinion it grew it's first hairs and broke it's voice after WW2. Been getting bigger ever since.

	04-08-2003 18:22									#14
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Why don't you read something besides "Wacko" sites ?

Hell. Any freak can create a site.
Look no further than Mark and Dan.

	04-08-2003 18:24									#15
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The PNAC site is created by a thinktank that current US administration thuroughly endorses, you will see the likes of Condoleza Rice and Donald Rumsfeld as proponents of that particular definition of US policy.

	04-08-2003 18:53									#16
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child I agree with this, it is the US tax payer that pays the mounting costs, WHY AREN'T THEY COMPLAINING!? is this why they are led to believe what they (generaly) believe, so they don't resist feeding the Complex?

But what reason should an average American have to ask Questions or complain?

What´s good for America (and I think controlling most of the worlds Ressources is good for America ) is also good for the average American.
So, Complaining or questioning it about it could beconsidered unpatriotic.

	04-08-2003 18:57									#17
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Okay, that's understandable, and at least they'd be being honest about it- which I can respect. But then you get all the 'We believe in freedom and democracy blah blah blah' stuff, why? What for? Why lie? They don't want resource rich 'developing world' nations doing what's in their own best interests, so why pretend?

	04-08-2003 19:10									#18
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I have the Impression, that he average American just stops thinking about it.
He just assumes that his Goverment has humanitarian Reasons for doing some things (and thereby avoids any conflict by arguing against the Opinion of the broader mass (or, as mentioned, to be considered unamerican)) and avoids so, to ask questions concerning other reasons the government may have for doing the things it does.

After all many things the american Government does can really be considered to be humanitarian and if America gets some more influence or the like, by doing them, it doesn´t harm.
(and other things which can´t be considered humanitarian just aren´t mentioned and come into the light years after they happened and when they come into the light there it is most of the times the old government which you can blame)

(Just an Impression I have)

	04-08-2003 19:16									#19
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child I know alot of Americans realy don't care what foreigners think of their country, but is that because they heartily agree with US foreign policy...

I'd prefer a more realist bent to it than neocon.

	04-08-2003 19:20									#20
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The average person in any country does not care about foreign policy insofar as it does not affect their lives. There are millions of Americas who think foreign aid makes up a significant portion of the US budget. If you told them it was inder 2% (or is it under 1%?), they would not believe you.

So the opinion of the masses is rather immaterial.

The world is changing: everyone speaks of the increadible military domintaiton of the US over the world: fine, we can beat any ohter country one on one in a war, but what about later? half our military is stuck in Iraq, which in terms of states is rather in the middle: now imagine we got stuck with Iran?

The US is not up for empire of any sort, as much as strategic thinkers may imagine: people are not willing to pay the price they would have to pay, in this time of automatic weapons and the internet and RPG's. We live in a time when technology gives states a greater and greater ability to control their people, so long as their people don't mind: but if the people mind, then the state is lossing the ability to hold on.

The US was at the height of its power in 1945: Our absolute power may be much greater today, but our relative power has been going down since then, and there is not much we can do about it continuing to go down. Certainly the US will be the dominat single player for many decades to come, but it's time at the top will end.

	04-08-2003 19:44									#21
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American taste for foreign adventure is limited. It is limited by the number of years and number of deaths the American public is willing to endure for each particular cause.

Face it folks, the US can't do everything it wants. In order to establish some sort of world peace it will take the efforts of like minded nations working together. Some things can be accomplished by a single nation but those days are comming to an end.

	04-08-2003 19:49									#22
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Yes, the biggest impediment for an American Empire is the unwillingness of Americans to bleed for it. Very sympathetic trait, just someone tell the rightwingers, please.

	04-08-2003 20:02									#23
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What happens to all empires?

I don't think most Americans want to dominate the world culturally speaking, I mean, while it may be a popular prospect now, that wont last, and its fallacious nature will become, no, is becoming clear to Americans. If they do want to take over the world as it were, then they should be resisted, but I very much doubt that PNAC's dreams will be realised in the LONG term.

Proteus: I agree, but given time, I think people will grow out of this neo-conservatism.

Nonetheless, I have one word for people like the PNAC: China

	04-08-2003 20:07									#24
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I think the US State has always found it easy to get round Americans unwillingness to whatever. Imminant threat and Eternal war have played well for these interests.

If it wasn't for the 'Communist Threat', the State wouldn't have gotten away with doing half the empirey type things it wanted to do. Now that's gone... there's the Eternal War against Terror to support imperial actions.

I think this is may be why there's such a disjoint between the perceptions of your average Jo American, and the actions of it's military/industrial complex abroad.

	04-08-2003 20:15									#25
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quote: A military weapon with no real rival to secure that domination - Royal Navy 1805 to 1912 cf. current US military but an increasing cost to maintain that advantage.

Actually, the cost is not increasing and it has been very modest for a decade.

	04-08-2003 20:16									#26
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So what's with the national deficit? (how many hundred billion is it now?)

	04-08-2003 20:18									#27
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Just look how much military spending is as a percentage of the economy. It is very low, at least by post WWII measures. And it's almost certainly very much lower than what the UK had in the 19th century (I don't have the figures on this though).

	04-08-2003 20:22									#28
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Yes, the biggest impediment for an American Empire is the unwillingness of Americans to bleed for it. Very sympathetic trait, just someone tell the rightwingers, please.

ps- don't forget the use of client states that do most of the grim dirty work, like the many regimes supported in South and Central America, South East Asia and the Middle East. For the most part it is through these regimes (known variously as bastions against communism, regional champions of democracy and allies against terrorism) that most US interests are served. It's a good distancing technique.

Also I won't deny the UKs role as the number one liutenant/junior partner in this kind of thing.

	04-08-2003 20:22									#29
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Yes DanS, spending is so low that half our army need to sit in Iraq peacekeeping and doing mop up, and that is in a state with a relatively friendly population: not one were we face widespread popular resistance.

And the American people are not willing to spend much more of a percentage a year.

	04-08-2003 20:23									#30
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The US has usually gone for indirect control, but that has also drawbacks, like "hickups" a la the revolution in Iran.