04-08-2003 22:48									#61
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quote: Duh. That's an extremely lose standard. Also, what has it to do with a "missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms"? The US was happily cooperating with the KMT regime in Taiwan and SK's military rulers.

Well, I was just following problem child's notion that the US is the prime mover for everything that happens in the world. Apparently for him we were taking the long view with the KMT and SK's military rulers.

	04-08-2003 22:50									#62
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By that standard, you're also responsible for mainland China becoming communist.

The US is not to blame for every tinpot dictator, but you supported a lot of them, for whatever reasons, while the zeal for democracy and freedom is nowhere to be found in your dealings with the 3rd world - or do you have an example?

	04-08-2003 22:52									#63
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It is interesting that in the few short years since the end of the cold war that those of you who most likely don't remember it have all forgotten that it occurred. That a lot of the stuff you want to blame on the US was done by both sides. Of course to the victor goes the blame....

I do find it humorous how often a simple think tank like PNAC can come up as being sited as proof of the new American imperialism. You would think that some new evidence would emirge, not just rehashing of the same old stuff.

	04-08-2003 22:54									#64
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"That a lot of the stuff you want to blame on the US was done by both sides."

True. But it is equally revisionist to proclaim some zeal for democracy and freedom policy.

	04-08-2003 22:54									#65
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dp

Last edited by HershOstropoler on 04-08-2003 at 23:10

	04-08-2003 23:12									#66
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quote: I do find it humorous how often a simple think tank like PNAC can come up as being sited as proof of the new American imperialism. You would think that some new evidence would emirge, not just rehashing of the same old stuff.

The people who run this "simple think tank", run our country. Perhaps one day you'll stop being so naive and realize how the world works.

	04-08-2003 23:33									#67
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler True. But it is equally revisionist to proclaim some zeal for democracy and freedom policy.

That's your strawman. I, for one, won't bite. Most people realize that a lot of nastiness went on during the Cold War. Had Germany or France been in the US's position after WWII, I sincerely doubt you would have acted all that much nobler.

It is frustrating as an American that unless we are constantly and profusely apologizing for all the world's evils that we are taken to be right-wing Bushite imperialists.

	04-08-2003 23:34									#68
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"That's your strawman."

Nope, that's what Dan said.

	04-08-2003 23:42									#69
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Actually, Dan was pointing out that it's a mixed bag of self-interest and desire for democracy. Most Americans, and I would hope Euros, believe in democracy as fundamentally the best choice amongst gov'ts. To claim that it is our only motivation is as much a strawman as to claim that it plays no part at all.

	04-08-2003 23:48									#70
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Hmm...

quote: It's missionary zeal for democracy and freedoms. You may point out all of the bad, but to me it's a mixed bag. There are a lot of successes in there too.

There was no other motivation mentioned. Or did you mean that as an explanation for why Americans are happy with their record? Doesn't make much sense to me either.

	04-08-2003 23:49									#71
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Hershey: The American government has been pushing for democracy in the rest of the world at least since the Monroe doctrine was proclaimed in the early 19th century. Sure, that push has been inconsistant and sometimes it took a back seat to political realities or the economic cronnism of office holders but it's always been there. A large part of the reason all of Latin America except Cuba (and possibly Venezuela) are now democracies is because of the actions of the US and the same can be said for places like Germany, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines.

The march to stable democracies is never a straight line and, yes, mistakes are always made but on balance the US has done more good then bad and more good then anyone else in the world.

	04-08-2003 23:52									#72
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Oerdin:

You can claim some cause there, but rarely a direct link.

"A large part of the reason all of Latin America" - What exactly did the US do to promote democracy there?

"Germany, Japan" - Yes.

"South Korea, Taiwan" - Very, very very indirectly.

"Philippines" - what exactly did the US do to topple Marcos?

	04-08-2003 23:52									#73
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quote: By that standard, you're also responsible for mainland China becoming communist.

In problem child's eyes, communist China is a good thing. So we can't be responsible for that.

quote: The US is not to blame for every tinpot dictator, but you supported a lot of them, for whatever reasons, while the zeal for democracy and freedom is nowhere to be found in your dealings with the 3rd world - or do you have an example?

I have plenty of examples.

Burma, Cuba, Venezuela. Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Zimbabwe.

	05-08-2003 00:09									#74
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"Burma, Cuba, Venezuela. Afghanistan, Iraq, North Korea, Zimbabwe."

Where democracy is always used when you don't like the regime for other reasons. Your concern for democracy in Venezuela has a lot to do with not liking Chavez. Same for Iraq or Syria, while oppression in Egypt and Pakistan is a-ok.

	05-08-2003 00:23									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The people who run this "simple think tank", run our country. Perhaps one day you'll stop being so naive and realize how the world works.

Darn, I can read names as well as you can. Show me were those people (with the exception of Mr. Wolfowitz) contributed anything more than their name to the site.

Setting up think tanks and getting advise (papers) from them, doesn't make all of the things that come out of them your policy. Their are a lot of think tanks supported by all manner of people high up in both parties. That doesn't mean the papers coming out of them are anything more than "what ifs" and possible strategies.

I am not naive, that is why I am a Republican. I gave up my youth inspired Democratic socialist tendicies not to long after I got out of college and had to work for a living. Trying to insult me won't win your point.

	05-08-2003 00:24									#76
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Is it a good thing or a bad thing that the Project for a New American Century is all about America taking over the world? Do you think that American dominance world wide will make the Earth a better place to live... or is it something to be feared and avoided at all costs. I of course have my own strong opinions on the matter, I'm sure you can guess what they are, but I am curious what American people think about their states designs for the futures of all nations (come to think of it I'm curious as to why the US public seems to buy the world-veiw it's fed). I know alot of Americans realy don't care what foreigners think of their country, but is that because they heartily agree with US foreign policy [America First stamp on the rest] or because they honeslty think US foreign policy is essentially benevolent... If this thread just gets closed, that'll certainly do as an answer too I suppose. But I'm not just trolling, I really do want to know. In the UK alot of people just turn their brains off with the attitude 'I'll leave decisions like that [going to war etc] to my betters to decide, far be it for me to second guess the government, they know what they're doing, and they're doing it for our sake' which I think is a pretty negligent attitude for voters in a 'democracy' to take.

of course it should ber america first?

who else should america put first, saudi arabia

but of course, other nations should resist any attempts by the US to rule the world (and the US shouldn't..., but will if all other nations just roll over and bare their throats)

Jon Miller

	05-08-2003 00:26									#77
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Oerdin: You can claim some cause there, but rarely a direct link.

How about France?

quote: "A large part of the reason all of Latin America" - What exactly did the US do to promote democracy there?

We kept you out. While Europe was quickly gobbling up most of Asia and Africa, The US provided a shield against European colonialsm in Latin America. Simon Bolivar tried to model South America on the United States.

In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?

	05-08-2003 00:27									#78
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BTW just so there is no misunderstanding. They people Sava is so upset about "set up" the think tank. The people who actually run it are as follows:

Project Directors
William Kristol, Chairman
Robert Kagan
Bruce P. Jackson
Lewis E. Lehrman
Mark Gerson
Randy Scheunemann

Project Staff
Gary Schmitt, Executive Director
Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director
Ellen Bork, Deputy Director
Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow
Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow, Director of the Middle East Initiative
Christopher Maletz, Assistant Director


If you don't recognize any of these people from teh current administration don't be suprised (unless you are Sava).

	05-08-2003 00:34									#79
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gunkulator:

"How about France?"

No issue about Europe and Japan in/post WWII. The issue is the 3rd world.

"We kept you out. While Europe was quickly gobbling up most of Asia and Africa, The US provided a shield against European colonialsm in Latin America. Simon Bolivar tried to model South America on the United States."

Whom did you keep out? The spanish (and portuguese, though under different circumstances) had just lost it, and few powers had an appetite to redo the 20 year wars of independence that the spanish lost. Also, had the brits wanted a piece of it, you would have been barely in a position to stop them.

"In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?"

What has my country done to prop up dictators, apart from exporting a guy to become one in Germany? After 1918 it was simply too small to do much either way. Before that... well, what has the US to show? The 1917 intervention against constitutional monarchies on behalf of a bunch of colonial powers that held several 100 million people under colonial yoke?

	05-08-2003 00:34									#80
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator In any case, what has YOUR country done to promote democracy?

What a loaded question.

He hides behind that Europa banner, but he's from Austria, long a bastion of freedom and democracy!

	05-08-2003 00:35									#81
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler As an old german proverb says: "Können vor Lachen."

you also had some other ones to the tune of "Deustchland über alles", "arbiet macht frei", and "ein volk. ein reich. ein fuhrer".

	05-08-2003 00:37									#82
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Now now, Hitler was leading Germany at the time, he was only born in Austria, let's be real.

	05-08-2003 00:37									#83
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Nope, we had "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser...."

	05-08-2003 00:39									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Meldor BTW just so there is no misunderstanding. They people Sava is so upset about "set up" the think tank. The people who actually run it are as follows: Project Directors William Kristol, Chairman Robert Kagan Bruce P. Jackson Lewis E. Lehrman Mark Gerson Randy Scheunemann Project Staff Gary Schmitt, Executive Director Daniel McKivergan, Deputy Director Ellen Bork, Deputy Director Thomas Donnelly, Senior Fellow Reuel Marc Gerecht, Senior Fellow, Director of the Middle East Initiative Christopher Maletz, Assistant Director If you don't recognize any of these people from teh current administration don't be suprised (unless you are Sava).

Does it suck being wrong?

quote: PNAC was founded in 1997 and is headed by project directors William Kristol, editor of the Weekly Standard, Robert Kagan, senior associate at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, contributing editor at the Weekly Standard and columnist for the Washington Post, and Bruce Jackson, a long-time Lockheed Martin executive who recently left the corporation to work full time on military policy issues. Its statement of principles recalls "the Reagan Administration's success" and urges a return to a "military that is strong and ready to meet both present and future challenges." PNAC's founding document was signed by Paul Wolfowitz, **** Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and numerous others who have gone on to become major players in the Bush national security team. Defense contractor Lockheed Martin recently hired PNAC's deputy director and principal author of the report, Thomas Donnelly

http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2...feb03corp2.html

The Military-Industrial-Think Tank Complex
Corporate Think Tanks and the
Doctrine of Aggressive Militarism

By William Hartung and Michelle Ciarrocca

	05-08-2003 00:42									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Now now, Hitler was leading Germany at the time, he was only born in Austria, let's be real.

nearly all of europe was german at one time or another

	05-08-2003 00:46									#86
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quote: There are many nations, [over 70] that have been subjected to this kind of thing, which is why I just can't seem to shut-up about it, no argument justifies it, you can't wash it into being in anyway moral or good, it's just capitalist-agenda power-freakery, so I really don't get how the sponsor of this is somehow transformed into the nation that loves freedom and democracy.

during the cold war, it was either those nations were a bastradly capitalist country, or a bastardly communist. If we didint support them, the soviets would have and they would have become communist... which means another closed market. So we had a choice. Support the bastards adn be friends, or not support them and be enemies... most of those basards would have been there either way. you cant blame the US on that fact, no matter how hard you try

	05-08-2003 00:46									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX nearly all of europe was german at one time or another

It might interest you to know Austria was a dictatorship under Kurt von Schuschnigg before Hitler took over.

Ol Kurt never met an election he liked (or didn't try to rig).

	05-08-2003 00:48									#88
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quote: Ol Kurt never met an election he liked (or didn't try to rig).

Sounds like he'd be perfect for the Bush/Cheney 2004 campaign.

	05-08-2003 00:49									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Uber KruX you also had some other ones to the tune of "Deustchland über alles", "arbiet macht frei", and "ein volk. ein reich. ein fuhrer".

*wipes tears from eyes*

that was good uber. i guess it just caught me by suprise

	05-08-2003 00:49									#90
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler Whom did you keep out? The spanish (and portuguese, though under different circumstances) had just lost it, and few powers had an appetite to redo the 20 year wars of independence that the spanish lost. Also, had the brits wanted a piece of it, you would have been barely in a position to stop them.

Sure, but we made it clear that we'd put up a fight. So instead of colonizing South America, the Brits picked on the relatively easier Africans. Without the United States, Latin America would have been just more easy pickings for the Brits.

quote: What has my country done to prop up dictators, apart from exporting a guy to become one in Germany?

kinda a big one there...

quote: After 1918 it was simply too small to do much either way. Before that... well, what has the US to show? The 1917 intervention against constitutional monarchies on behalf of a bunch of colonial powers that held several 100 million people under colonial yoke?

Actually, America's greatest gift to the world may have been our LACK of action in WWI. Instead of rushing in to support one imperialistic power or the other, we let you guys foolishly spend all your money and power beating each other up. Helped put an end to Europe's monarchies.