12-08-2003 07:28									#31
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I still say you guys should switch to Empire Builder. Not only you get to play with crayons , it's really a fairer game (less dice rolling).

	12-08-2003 10:57									#32
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is it a good three person game

	12-08-2003 11:53									#33
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Yes

2-6 player game, best with 3 or 4, like usual.

	12-08-2003 17:41									#34
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Totally agree re the PA, and the need for a new game. this one is broken.

There may still some strats of interest left in 3-player, Ming, but all we're doing is following this to its logical conclusion -- which is race to a superchief, race to 200k. The only question left in my mind is whether the Boston/Portland lock is worthwhile, since it's so cheap.

A dice-rolling contest.

Ming -- Do you own a copy of empire builder?

	12-08-2003 17:55									#35
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BTW, I went to the Rail Baron site and linked to the tournament championship coverage. They use some STRANGE rules...

1. After home city, when you rol your first desto, you have the option to switch your hom city to that destination. No penalty. Also permits multiple players to end up with the smae hometown.

2. Once you've bought the express, NO COST to upgrade to superchief at any future buying round. Apparently, they think the loss of 2 purchase opptys is penalty enough. (Still can't believe this one.)

The champ. games are 6-player, of course. Overall, looked like the major focus was pretty analytical -- systems graded on destination odds -- percent of cities covered, percent chance of locks. Several cases of players buying rails they can't connect because the charts say they will "reach" more cities.

Superchiefs usually the last thing obtained, even when they're free...

Weird.

	12-08-2003 18:04									#36
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How long does it take to play?

	12-08-2003 19:56									#37
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Hmmm.. under those rules, and with 6 people... if you don't own rails, you are screwed. Even having a superchief won't help if you don't get anywhere.

If you made two short destinations to start, it might be worth it... hmmmmmm

	12-08-2003 21:42									#38
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6 players... one or two will be knocked out relatively quickly.

	12-08-2003 23:04									#39
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quote: Originally posted by rah How long does it take to play?

Actually my question was refering to Empire Builder.

Jr, are you sure it was a free upgrade or were you just allowed to upgrade AND buy a railroad the same turn?

	13-08-2003 03:18									#40
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Pretty sure it was "reach a destination, may upgrade express to superchief instead of purchase." Why else would no one have it until the endgame?

(They were very clear that you had to have the express to do this. Without the express, you pay full price.)

Weird, huh?

I'm not suggesting that our "immediate superchief" approach would work in this game. In 6-player, they disappearance rate of key rails is too fast for that to be practical. Heck, I've had 7 or 8 rails disappear while I tried to get from Philly to LA in a 6-player.

I just can't believe the acceptance of the "free" price point...

@Urban Ranger -- I read the most recent 2 championships and no one was KO'd at all.

	13-08-2003 03:22									#41
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Oh, here's another wierd tournament rule --

If you have a superchief, you MUST roll all 3 dice -- always. (The white pair gets used up if you go in, and the 3rd die is your "out" roll.)

	13-08-2003 04:39									#42
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now that would be a great advantage to have. Knowing that you were going to get in and out of a destination while only having to pay one penality gives you the option of buying something bigger if you know you won't be spending the extra 5 or 10 grand...

Also... in the end game. If you destination is 5 or 6 squares away from your home town... you will know when you get in on two dice that you have already won, and will not be short.... instead of having to declare not know what you will role...

	13-08-2003 08:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by rah Actually my question was refering to Empire Builder.

Not that long. Longer when you first play the game because you still need to figure out how to build the optimal routes. After awhile, though, an hour or less for 3 or 4 players.

In Empire Builder, you start with 40m, 3 contract cards (each with 3 loads available), and 2 pre-building turns (60m and 3 pre-building turns in Bristish Rails). Each option has a cargo, a destination, and a payment term. When you carry that cargo load to the destination, you get the payment, and the contract card is "used up" and discarded (you take the top card from the deck).

Some of these cards are random events, which take place when they are drawn. Otherwise, the card is placed face up in front of you. You may discard all three cards to draw 3 news ones, this takes up a turn.

For each of the pre-build turns, you get to spend up to 20m to either build tracks or upgrade your locomotive. It takes 1m to build into a plains "dot," 2m into a hilly "dot," +4 if you need a bridge, and a few more if you want to build into a small or medium city (major cities are free to enter). This is done by drawing from dot to dot with crayons . All newly built railway lines must connect to existing ones or major cities (yeah, that means everybody starts building from major cities).

Your starting locomotive moves 8 a turn and carries 2 loads. You can upgrade to a Fast Freight that moves at 12, then to a Super Freight that moves at 12 and carries 3 loads.

After the pre-building turns, each player takes turn to move. When you complete a contract, you get money from the bank, get to draw a new contract, and gets to finish the rest of the movement if he hasn't used it up. At the end of the turn you get a chance to build (again, up to 20m).

You win by making a certain amount of money - unlike Railroad Baron, you don't have a home, so there's no need to go home. BTW, you get to keep the amount of money you have a secret

quote: Originally posted by rah Jr, are you sure it was a free upgrade or were you just allowed to upgrade AND buy a railroad the same turn?

In that case, everybody will upgrade it at the first chance

	13-08-2003 17:31									#44
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That third dice rule is suprising. I thought it was clear in the rules, but in hindsight, I guess it could be read that way. Have to check that out on Friday. And maybe review the rule on SuperChiefs, but I've never heard anybody having played that way before.

	13-08-2003 18:38									#45
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Yes... the rules are very CLEAR on this subject

quote: The Bonus Roll: Depending on what he rolls on the white dice during his normal turn, a player may be entitled to a Bonus Roll after he has finished his normal turn. A player is entitled to a Bonus Roll after his normal turn if either: 1) He rolled 'boxcars' on the white dice during his normal turn; or 2) He owned an EXPRESS and he rolled any doubles during his normal turn; or 3) He owned a SUPERCHIEF when he rolled the dice during his normal turn. (so a player with a SUPERCHIEF gets a bonus Roll every turn)

The rules continue to always refer to the two white dice as the "normal turn" and the red die as the bonus roll.

So it must be something they do as an attempt to speed up the game... just like the revised SuperChief rule...

	13-08-2003 20:08									#46
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Yeah, there was a lot of discussion about game speed. They seem to runin the 3-4 hour range, over 4 hours for 6 players.

At this year's tournament, they encouraged players to use computer look-up aids for destinations and payoffs to try to speed things up.

BTW, they do allow you to count out all routes before you start moving. (Technically, the rules state that you have to start moving as soon as you roll.) If the majority of players at the table agree that you "stopped" while moving, you lose that turn.
(Doesn't seem to happen in the actual games.)

	13-08-2003 20:12									#47
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Thinking about the Superchief rule, I can see where, in a 6-player, there could be a lot of fallout when penalties are doubled (before superchiefs are purchased).

To me, that's fun, and makes the s-chief an important buying decision (vs. "one more rail"). But maybe they want to make sure none of the finalists get screwed by one mis-timed bad desto...

	13-08-2003 20:30									#48
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Yeah, I thought that bonus roll rule was pretty specific. Thanks for looking it up.

	13-08-2003 21:07									#49
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Here is an interesting site... The Rail Baron FAQ

http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gnichols/glg/rbfaq.htm

It clarifies some of the grey areas in the rules, using the rules to define them. In some cases... they state the rules don't address and they give the logical point of view, so one might argue those...

One we've never thought about or run across:

ALTERNATE DESTINATION IS CURRENT CITY

I just declared, and as my alternate destination, I rolled my current city. Do I lose my turn?

Ruling: Yes, and unfortunately, you are now a sitting duck for the rover play.

Substantiation: The rules say "When he 'declares', the player still rolls for a new destination...". The rules for rolling a new destination state "If he is already in the city he rolls, then he loses his turn that round." The confusion occurs because the rules also say "...the player ignores the 'alternate' destination entirely:". However, notice the colon at the end of that quote; the rules continue on to explain further what they mean by ignoring: "...he may move through it without stopping, and he does not get any PAYOFF for reaching it." Thus, the alternate destination is ignored for purposes of moving and payoffs, but NOT for loss of turn.

Advice: Avoid choosing your current region during the process of obtaining an alternate destination

	13-08-2003 22:46									#50
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Never figured that one. I'll have to go out the and look at some of these. There may need to be discussions before I play the next time.

	13-08-2003 23:00									#51
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I found it to be an interesting site, and well worth reading.

	13-08-2003 23:24									#52
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quote: Originally posted by rah There may need to be discussions before I play the next time.

What's the over/under on that happening...?

(JR out -- See you next week)

	14-08-2003 01:28									#53
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Wow so many people still play these board games. Does this one have much slow calculation, or is it quite fast paced?

	14-08-2003 07:51									#54
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Fast. You do the calculations when you are not playing the game.

	15-08-2003 02:43									#55
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Or like some of us, you have them all memorized.

And JR< how long is "when hell freezes over"

	19-08-2003 03:00									#56
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rah -- That's what I thought.

DrSpike -- In play, Rail Baron is virtually calculation-free.

	20-08-2003 07:22									#57
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Maybe you should play with the optional rule "No need to pay while travelling on your own lines."

That should put a spanner into things.

	20-08-2003 18:27									#58
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This would be a pretty minor change overall, though it certainly would create more endgame scenarios and permit more marginal purchases when short of cash.

Personally, I don't think a trip from SF to Chicago on the AT&SF should be a free ride...

	21-08-2003 17:27									#59
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I agree. Part of the fun is risking the buy leaving yourself with less than 3 grand.

	21-08-2003 20:24									#60
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Yep... nothing better than being in Chicago, with 41 or 42 thousand... and the ATS&F sitting there to be purchased.

Do you take the risk and buy it and pray for a short destination.

Being able to ride you own rails for free would make such decisions easier... assuming you already had some good rail