04-08-2003 17:58									#1
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We have played it for years. Different strategies have evolved over the years.

But recently there have been a lot of three player games and fewer and fewer railroads are being purchased. In one recent game, Ming won a game buying only 1 railroad. Guess which railroad it was.

	04-08-2003 19:38									#2
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One of the "Big 3," or the one that connects to his hometown.

Anyway, that strategy can certainly be countered by buying up railroads.

The game is kinda fun but you need at least 4 players to make it interesting, and it's luck dependent to a fair degree. I remember I won one game by having a destination very close to my hometown. I made the trip, got enough to declare, and went back home the next turn, beating another player who had declared before me.

	04-08-2003 22:05									#3
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I play Rail Baron some. But I haven't played it too much recently, because my summer has been busy.

Pretty much everything UR says is true: although it can be fun with 3, you really need 4 players, and a lot of the game depends on the roll of the dice.

As for the railroad, I'd say Ming probably had either the PA or the AT&SF.

	04-08-2003 23:52									#4
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Yes. In a four person game. All the railroads will be bought. In a three man game it is very difficult for two players to buy all the railroads before a third player can win. The current three man games have evolved to where only about 12 railroads are bought.

I'll let a few more people guess the one railroad before revealing the answer. You will be suprised and impressed.

	05-08-2003 07:54									#5
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Hm.

CMSt.P&P or NYC.

	05-08-2003 17:07									#6
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Hmmm, NO

	06-08-2003 09:27									#7
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Blast!

What about IC? [Sooner or later I'd exhaust the list ]

	06-08-2003 19:51									#8
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enough torture.

It was the WP

I forget what his home town was. But I doubt the WP hooked to it.

	06-08-2003 19:58									#9
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Yep... it was the WP, and my home town was New Orleans, and I rolled St Louis, and had over 200K when I got there, so I was close enough to declare, and then rolled it.

We are wondering if it can be done without buying a rail, but the WP is more like an insurance policy in case somebody does waste the money to buy a second big western rail

If you buy your Super Chief after the WP (or no rail)... you are cruising. And you can get to 200 before the rails get bought on you. At only a 5 thousand penality, even if they buy the rail on you when you are going some place, they lose ground on you

Yes... the game isn't desigined for only 3 people. with 4 people, the game plays like it should.

	06-08-2003 20:40									#10
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Technically if you add it up.
8 for the WP,
40 for the superchief
200 to win.
+ rail usage. 40x1 and let's say 6 pimp destinations. Of them you get in and out on 4 of them for 5k. Pay 10k on the other 2.

If done quickly, you probably only need just over 330k to win. Assuming an average payout of 15K, that's barely over 22 destinations that must be rolled. That drastically reduces the number of opportunities to roll a Boston or Miami.

To pimp you, the other two players must buy all three big western rails (you'll still have the WP to get into the #1 probablility city) and the three main NE rails.
40+40+42+30+29+24=over 200k plus 80 for their chiefs divided by 2 = close to 150 k apiece. to your 48K. If you only have to roll 22 destinations to win, do they have the time to catch up that 100K. The rest of the board is wide open. (unless they want to spend even more)

In the game that Ming won, they did not. If you roll bad destinations, they do. But in only 22 destinations, you're minimizing that possibility. My model is guessing you will have over 1/4 pimp destinations. (6/22).

You will still be able to reach over 25% (san fran, oakland, reno, sacramento) of the possible rolls in the west, over 19% in the NE (buffalo, washington) and you will only be locked out of clevland and indianapolis in the NC.

Every other destination will be open unless they spend even more. By that time, they'll just be falling farther and farther behind.

RAH

And, yes, these were wild approximations, but the theory is the same.

	06-08-2003 21:40									#11
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Great minds think alike... I was about to post a very similar discription.

Yeah, even if you are off on some of the numbers, the idea is solid.

With only 22 or so destinations, you can only get so screwed (granted, if you get TOTALLY unlucky, that's something else, but what are the odds)

Every additional rail they buy makes it tougher for them to compete.

	07-08-2003 07:35									#12
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I thought NE is the most likely region?

At any rate, I found Mayfair's railroad games (yeah, the one with crayons ) are more interesting than Rail Baron. Empire Builder for the US, British Rails for, well, UK, and they probably have others.

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 07-08-2003 at 07:42

	07-08-2003 09:53									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger At any rate, I found Mayfair's railroad games (yeah, the one with crayons ) are more interesting than Rail Baron. Empire Builder for the US, British Rails for, well, UK, and they probably have others.

Yea, I like Empire Builder a lot too, but I still like Rail Baron as well.

	07-08-2003 13:37									#14
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Empire Builder is a lot less luck dependent.

	07-08-2003 17:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I thought NE is the most likely region?

It is. But SanFran/Oakland is the most likely city. Followed by New York.

NE 20.83%
SW 16.66%
NC 15.27%

	08-08-2003 07:34									#16
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Oh. That's interesting. I guess you guys calculated the probabilities to death.

	08-08-2003 09:18									#17
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Yep... thousands upon thousands of games...

It was funny... we had to replace our hot water heater in our old place. The guy came over, and while getting ready to yank the old one, he noticed I had three copies of Rail Baron on my shelf (we wear them out)...

He started telling me that he and his buddies play every week. He told me the first rail bought in their games was the SAL... then the big rails, and then the NE rails.

I told him how we played, and explained the logic behind it. Convinced him that the PA was truely the number one rail... We talked for a few hours over a few beers after he installed the Water Heater.

I only wish I knew how his groups games were effected in the long run by our chat

	08-08-2003 10:03									#18
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Whats rail baron?

	08-08-2003 11:43									#19
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I played a long time ago

it was fun, I would like to play again

jon Miller

	08-08-2003 17:26									#20
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Rumor has it that there is an on-line version.

When we first started playing the game, the SAL was usually number one, but then people started crunching the probabilities of the destinations and that stopped.

GO PA

	09-08-2003 08:39									#21
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quote: Originally posted by rah Rumor has it that there is an on-line version.

Yes, there is, and it can be found here: http://www.insystem.com/rbp/

It's shareware - free for 30 days, then it costs $25 to register.

	09-08-2003 10:02									#22
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Yes indeed PA is the #1 railroad in the game - which makes all the NE railroads (at least the NYC and B&O also) the first picks, then the Big 3, than SAL.

	09-08-2003 10:03									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Whats rail baron?

It's a railroad boardgame published by Avalon Hill. You don't build rails, you buy existing ones and haul cargoes.

	10-08-2003 04:26									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Yes indeed PA is the #1 railroad in the game - which makes all the NE railroads (at least the NYC and B&O also) the first picks, then the Big 3, than SAL.

Yes, pretty standard. It does depend on how many players are in the game. If four or five, the B&O will usually go after the big 3.

But with 3, again last night, a one rail winner. Jrabbit won with just the Rio-Grande. (he passed someone) but it was still a one-rail win.

	10-08-2003 06:57									#25
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You definitely need more players. Maybe Ming can contact that plumber guy

	10-08-2003 14:10									#26
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It's like dueling in civII MP, you would rather you didn't but sometimes it's all you have.

	12-08-2003 01:27									#27
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Yeah... you need four to play the game right. But as Rah says, if you only have three... that's all you have.

Hmmmm... maybe I need a new hot water heater

	12-08-2003 01:57									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Yeah... you need four to play the game right. But as Rah says, if you only have three... that's all you have. Hmmmm... maybe I need a new hot water heater

No, you need to buy me a house in the same neighborhood as yours...

	12-08-2003 02:15									#29
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Great thread. I'm part of that 3some with Ming and a mutual friend. The FNSGS -- Friday Night Strategic Gaming Society.

We've been working toward breaking down the 3-player paradigm for years, and it seems clear that we've finally "broken" the ruleset. Games take about an hour or so.

Typically, these are the rails still purchased: NYNH&H, B&M, PA, NYC, B&O, SAL, ACL, DRG&N, and WP. That's 9.

Sometimes, a few more go on an opportunistic basis. For about 3 weeks, we were seeing the AT&SF go as well, but I think we're beyond that now. Last Friday, we played 2 games and NO $40K rails were purchased.

When this (long-predicted) trend became real, I tried to counter it with a "pimp the leader" buying strat (like N&W, C&NW when locks were rolled), but this was nowhere near effective. Again, as predicted (and as stated above), it just puts you further behind.

The bottom line is, in 3-player Rail Baron, any rail you buy is just delaying your superchief. If the others buy their chiefs, you're toast. Even if you own the whole northeast, by the time you've acquired it, the game will be nearly over.

Kind of like a bad start or an early mistake in Civ2 -- it multiplies over time.

	12-08-2003 04:53									#30
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I'm not even sure buying any rail is worth it any more.

People are still buying the PA before a Superchief if it's there... That may not be the smartest thing to do

And yeah... I don't see any of the Large Western rails ever being bought anymore. And with that being the case, there is no longer any need for the WP or RG to be bought as well. So really... only the Northeast, and maybe killers corner in the southeast... and that's about it.