05-08-2003 01:52									#31
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yeah good point Japher... let's give the troops in Iraq a vacation... they are the ones with REAL stressful jobs. But let's let Bush take vacations as he cuts veteran's benefits.

	05-08-2003 01:53									#32
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How bout he spends less time vacationing and more time giving PRESS CONFERENCES so that we know that he IS doing his job.

His father gave 60+ in his first 30 months in the job. Clinton gave 30+. Thus far Bush has given a grand total of 9.

	05-08-2003 01:54									#33
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Hey, I am fine with him taking a vacation, I am just mad at how long it is... Especially since he told us that we won't be seeing our brother, father, son, husband, what-have-you for at least a year. One year, no vacation, one day off out of 10... Yeah, so Bush will take a whole month off when there is already a lot of bad moral spreading over there!

	05-08-2003 01:54									#34
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Well, I want to find out from Sava what he thinks Bush's schedule should be... how many hours a day does Sava want Bush to "be on the job"?

There's also the fact that there are some people in this world whose time is considered so valuable that there is an entire infrastructure designed towards meeting their needs... and there's nobody who is as catered to in this regards as the President. Limo's, helicopters, airplanes, bodyguards, and top-notch communications are just some of the perks you get for the hardest job on the planet.

	05-08-2003 01:56									#35
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quote: and top-notch communications are just some of the perks you get for the hardest job on the planet.

Hardest job my ass... tell that to the 19 year old kid on patrol in Baghdad...

	05-08-2003 01:59									#36
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Or to Colin Powell who hasen't had two seconds to sit that huge ass down as he tromps all over the world explaining to people what "dang" and "right back atcha" means.

	05-08-2003 02:11									#37
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I will. The president more of a target for Islamic terrorists than any one randomly picked 19 year old kid, and, barring that either of them serve out their terms without getting shot*, the decisions that have to be made by the President will age the man far more than the decisions made by a 19 year old grunt.

And before people start whining about how I'm minimizing the Army soldier, I'm not. You're the one who minimizes the amount of work that has to be done to be President (and an executive in general, but that's another thread).

* As far as physical danger is concerned, at least 8 out of 42 presidents have had assassination attempts against them some time within their political lives, plus don't forget about the number of Presidents who served on the battlefield including Tyler, Jackson, Grant, Eisenhower, Truman, and Washington, and a number who lived for a time with death sentences over their heads, Monroe, Jefferson, J & JQ Adams. That is 18 out of 44(?): I don't think 41% of the 19 year olds in Iraq are going to get shot or have a bounty placed on their names.

	05-08-2003 02:15									#38
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NEWSFLASH JOHNT: The security protocols of 2003 are much greater than 1883 or whenever... even since JFK they have changed so much. I think the president is probably one of the safest people on the planet.

	05-08-2003 02:16									#39
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For a reason, Sava. And still, despite the increased security, people still target the President specifically. Unlike GI Joe in Iraq, where death is slightly more random (they're just taking out your position, it's your bad luck that it happens to be your position. ) With the President, it's different.

	05-08-2003 02:17									#40
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I bet the security protocols were pretty good in 1981 as well...

The President is also one of the most demanding and stressful jobs on the planet as well.

	05-08-2003 02:18									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The President is also one of the most demanding and stressful jobs on the planet as well.

Don't tell things that Sava does not want to hear.

	05-08-2003 02:25									#42
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quote: Hardest job my ass... tell that to the 19 year old kid on patrol in Baghdad...

Ummm...as far as hard goes, those guys don't have to make decisions, they do what they are told. Not to mention the fact that I would venture to say statistics could show that being home is just as dangerous, with car wrecks, and all the other domestic hazards. Thousands of people die every day in the US, and we are only losing 1 soldier a day over there? Besides, Those kids signed up for the MILITARY. MILITARIES ARE FOR FIGHTING AND WARS. They did not get drafted, they chose to join. Their job is not to make decisions, it is to follow orders. That is what they signed up for. Dubya signed up for a job that consisted of making decisions. He can make decisions just as well in crawford as he can in DC. Your argument is foolish and holds no water.

	05-08-2003 02:26									#43
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you guys are hilarious... sure the president has a tough job, nobody is saying it's easy. My original point was that his job is in DC, not Texas. And personally, I think the average grunt in Iraq has a more demanding and stressful job. 4 hours of sleep, if that, and your friends dying around you... no, that's much easier than sitting in an office with your buddies, running the country.

	05-08-2003 02:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Sava you guys are hilarious... sure the president has a tough job, nobody is saying it's easy. My original point was that his job is in DC, not Texas.

** cough **

lap tops, cell phones, pagers

** cough **

	05-08-2003 02:29									#45
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Let's not forget the fact that

Congress is out of session!

and that the people whom he'd be working with in Washington are, well, not in Washington either.

	05-08-2003 02:33									#46
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun ** cough ** lap tops, cell phones, pagers ** cough **

Can I tell that to my boss when he asks why I don't show up to work?

	05-08-2003 02:33									#47
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Do you actually use any of those things to work while at home?

	05-08-2003 02:34									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Can I tell that to my boss when he asks why I don't show up to work?

I think I know why some people are driven crazy when conversing with Sava.

	05-08-2003 02:36									#49
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Yeah, what is congress doing anyway?



The president is also suppose to be a leader, a part from a decission maker. What does a month "off" say about a leader when his troops are still fighting?

It would be like a General getting an iced tea and a hooker when his boys are going into battle, wait, we are already engaged.

All I am saying is that now is not the opportune time for a vacation of that length. Disagree is fine, but saying that he can communicate just as well from Texas does not put everything right with the situation. The flag should be on the flag pole and the fire in the hearth.

	05-08-2003 02:37									#50
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Kaak --

We're losing roughly one a day to hostile acts. You can't forget that the rates of accidents (car wrecks, etc.) is higher in war zones than domestic situations.

	05-08-2003 02:38									#51
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quote: and your friends dying around you

with the number of troopswe have had over there vs the number of troops that have died, most "grunts" haven't even had one friend die around them, much less multiple friends...

	05-08-2003 02:40									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak with the number of troopswe have had over there vs the number of troops that have died, most "grunts" haven't even had one friend die around them, much less multiple friends...

that's a terribly ignorant and heartless thing to say... one of my friends who served as a marine from 1999-2001 has had two friends die in Iraq...

	05-08-2003 02:41									#53
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quote: that's a terribly ignorant and heartless thing to say

Even though it's probably correct?

Or are you willing to assert that your friend is 'most grunts' in Iraq?

	05-08-2003 02:42									#54
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my cousin is in a marine recon division, and he was battling on the front lines. He didn't lose a friend at all...

	05-08-2003 02:47									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kaak my cousin is in a marine recon division, and he was battling on the front lines. He didn't lose a friend at all...

Well good for him, but despite your cousin's experience, there are others who HAVE lost friends, brothers, sons, daughters, fathers, mothers, etc... so keep that in mind before you make another ignorant generalization.

	05-08-2003 02:48									#56
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So again, Sava... is your friend 'most' grunts? How many percent of the troops sent over have been lost? 1%, 2%? Is that most grunts friends?

	05-08-2003 02:56									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui So again, Sava... is your friend 'most' grunts? How many percent of the troops sent over have been lost? 1%, 2%? Is that most grunts friends?

WTF does that have to do with anything? The soldiers have a job. The president has a job. Just because only a few people had friends who died doesn't mean that their circumstances aren't legitimate. Even if one soldier had died in Iraq, his job would have still been tougher than the president's.

	05-08-2003 02:56									#58
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This is typical Sava, though. Totally overstate something (the average blah has to deal with blah) when only a few actually do, and then when you contest the numbers, he calls you ignorant or heartless.

	05-08-2003 02:56									#59
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I have to agree with Japher on this.

There is a time and a place for vacations. When Iraq is still a mess, and there's a lot of confusion as to whent things are going to quiet down: it's not the best time to go off to Crawford.



As for the President having the hardest job in the world... I disagree. I definitely think the work the coalition army is doing in Iraq is harder than the tasks taken on by Bush (considering the amount of advisors and helpers and such he has, and the fact that he's in a much less volatile environment).

The facts are: people are dying in Iraq, Bush just told the soldiers that they'll be staying there for a much longer haul then anticipated... while he goes to relax at his ranch. That just doesn't seem to go hand in hand with 'great leadership'.

	05-08-2003 02:57									#60
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So, you are all saying that the casualties are so low in Iraq that they don't even compare to domestic accident casualties?

All the more reason for Bush to be with the troops. a) It's obviously safer b) He'll have 300,000 armed guards c) I hear that Bush's golf came is so bad that he spends most of his time in the sand anyway d) He'd be actively supporting his troops and increase morale e) He can extend his trip and write the whole thing off as a buisness expense!!!!