06-08-2003 17:02									#31
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Dad was a marine in WW II. He was scheduled for the first wave in the invasion of Japan. Estimates for casualties in that first wave have been set as high as 100%. I wouldn't be here if not for the bombings. Guess which way I voted? In any event, he was with the group that landed at Nagasaki shortly after the surrender. He, as most of his unit did, died of cancer some thirty years later.

It was a terrible decision to have to make, but bombing those cities and bringing the war to a close was definately the right decision.

	06-08-2003 17:06									#32
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well. why the second bomb. your father would have lived on for longer.

	06-08-2003 17:36									#33
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It should be remembered that the Soviet Union was actually hampering communication between Japanese and American authorities. Supposedly the Japanese government tried to initiate negotiations with the US in July through the Soviet embassy, but the Soviets deliberately quashed the messages. There also was supposedly an attempt to contact the US after Hiroshima. After Nagasaki the Japanese switched to using the Swedish embassy. How might history have been changed if the Japanese hadn't been so naive as to trust the Soviets, or OTOH if they hadn't decided to try the Swedes later?

	06-08-2003 17:51									#34
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Yes, it is always interesting to watch people debate the choices of the past based on the thoughts of today.

At the time the bombs were dropped, atomic power was considered the great technology that was going to turn the planet into a paradise. There were no worries about radiation (we had really done any studies, so most things were guesses). There was no cold war with nuclear brinkmanship to make us fear the weapons.

Everyone keeps mentioning Dresdon, but the same thing was occurring in Japan as well. Prior to the invasion, the Japanese cities would have been "prepped" by constant and relentless bombing. The thread yesterday about using "firebombs" on military targets is nothing. We were dropping them on cities we knew were built in a large part out of wood. The idea was to inflict as much damage and as many casualties as possible. Civilians weren't considered off limits. They contributed to the war efforts and so were legit targets.

The big question about the bombs wasn't to use them or not because they were nuclear,, no one at the time gave a royal rats rear about that (although some thought that the explosion could start a chain reaction). It question was the amount of fissible material on-hand and if this would waste what little we had. The Japanese also had some intel on how much we had as well. Some factions didn't think we had enough for more than the test bomb and one other. The fact that the US dropped two bombs in quickly, indidcated to them that we had a lot more material than they thought.

We can make debates all day long about how many lives were saved or not. The Japanese were not going to surrender unconditionally unless their was a suceessful invasion and the US was not going to give terms. The war had raqed too long and people wanted total victory. They didn't want to leave anything around to come back against them as Europe did in WWI.

The dropping of the bombs shortened the war, of that their can be no question.

Don't try to color the choices made then with your personnal feeling now. You have to look at the picture as they saw it and not as it would be viewed today.

	06-08-2003 18:08									#35
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Another point to consider was the arming of Japanese civillians as a last line of defense. At what point does a civillian become a soldier?

	06-08-2003 20:10									#36
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd MtG, Niigata was originally one of four priority targets (others being Hiroshima, HQ of Japanese 2nd Army and an industrial target, Kokura, an industrial target, and Kyoto, a major industrial city). Kyoto was replaced by Henry Stimson with Nagasaki, which I'm sure you know. Now, Niigata may have been considered a priority target, but it was never the primary or secondary target for either mission - the first mission's priority order was Hiroshima, Kokura, and Nagasaki, and the second mission's order was Kokura, then Nagasaki. Again, because of the presence of Kokura on the priority list, Niigata was precluded because of distance.

Kyoto was never a heavily industrialized city, and still isn't now. Along with Nara, Nikko, and Kamakura, it was a prohibited target due to it's lack of military assets and connection with Japanese cultural history and the Emperor. The theory wasn't so much enlightened as pragmatic, being that bombing of those targets would infuriate the Japanese and make them far more likely to resist.

I believe you mean Kobe, which is part of the Osaka-Kyoto-Kobe triangle in the Kansai area, and a huge port-rail-industrial city, then and now.

	06-08-2003 20:11									#37
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Another point to consider was the arming of Japanese civillians as a last line of defense. At what point does a civillian become a soldier?

People might take up arms to defend their country from invasion? Heaven forbid!

At any rate, using nukes (or firebombing) civilians is just morally indefensible. It's terrorism is what it is - surrender or be destroyed in the cruel and inhumane ways. How is a legitimate military attacking civilians with WMDs to achieve political goals any better than fanatics doing the same thing? In the end, its still the common everyday people (like us) who bear the pain and loss.

Hiroshima was criminal.

	06-08-2003 20:20									#38
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Hiroshima and Nagasaki were necessary. They did indeed save many, many more lives than an invasion of Japan would have taken.

	06-08-2003 20:27									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Using nuclear weapons on civilians is a crime tenfold worse than, say, flying a plane in a building, and its cruelty is topped only by the crimes of the nazis themselves.

Yes, much better to take a hands off approach, and let 1-2 million Japanese, mostly children and old people, die of starvation and disease over the winter of 1945-46. Then invade in the spring, and have US casualties exceed total casualties incurred throughout the rest of the war, and Japanese casualties even higher.

Had the Japanese continued resistance, which was likely despite unauthorized initial peace overtures made to the Soviets, the civilian casualties over the winter would have dwarfed what we did from the bombings.

The military government confiscated nearly everything of value (in the last year of the war, something like 80% of Japanese GDP went to the war effort) from the people, it was a bad crop year, there were virtually no imports, the countryside was full of refugees from the city that couldn't be supported, and the country was a humanitarian disaster in the making.

My ex in-laws lived through that era in western Tokyo (at the time still somewhat rural in their area), and during the time I lived in Japan (Nagasaki, Sendai, and some time in Tokyo and Kyoto), I met many people who had lived through the WWII era as either kids or adults, including a few bomb survivors, and descendants of bomb victims (both direct and radiation). A good friend of mine's father was a doctor in Hiroshima, who treated initial victims, and a few weeks later he died of radiation poisoning. I'm fully familiar with the issue and the human impact, related to the bombs, the conventional bombing, and the general condition of the civilian population.

All of war consists of immoral acts, but the most immoral act of all in war is prolonging it's conclusion unnecessarily.

	06-08-2003 20:31									#40
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Bah! A more interesting question would be if Doolittle's Raid on Tokyo was justified.

	06-08-2003 20:51									#41
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There is no justification for mass murder.

	06-08-2003 20:56									#42
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Dad was a marine in WW II. He was scheduled for the first wave in the invasion of Japan. Estimates for casualties in that first wave have been set as high as 100%. I wouldn't be here if not for the bombings. Guess which way I voted? In any event, he was with the group that landed at Nagasaki shortly after the surrender. He, as most of his unit did, died of cancer some thirty years later. It was a terrible decision to have to make, but bombing those cities and bringing the war to a close was definately the right decision.

My Dad was in the Army in the Philippines at the time. I believe he would have been part of an invasion force. Still, I do not believe the bombing was justified even if it did affect me as it did you by preserving our dads lives.

	06-08-2003 21:29									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Ned There is no justification for mass murder.

war = mass murder

quote: Originally posted by The Templar People might take up arms to defend their country from invasion? Heaven forbid!

Nice dodge. Answer the question: When are we allowed to kill civilians preparing for homeland defense? In their homes? During their weapons training? Or is it hands off until we actually meet them in combat, guaranteeing even more death and destruction?

quote: At any rate, using nukes (or firebombing) civilians is just morally indefensible. It's terrorism is what it is - surrender or be destroyed in the cruel and inhumane ways.

As opposed to what? Being destroyed in kind and humane ways?

quote: How is a legitimate military attacking civilians with WMDs to achieve political goals any better than fanatics doing the same thing? In the end, its still the common everyday people (like us) who bear the pain and loss.

Oh please. Soldiers are common everyday people too. Governments that station soldiers in along side with civilians can't complain when civilians are killed. Besides, Okinawa proved that the Japanese citizenry would continue to fight on despite the overwhelming slaughter.

quote: Hiroshima was criminal.

Sacreficing more lives to satisfy your warped sense of fairness is significantly more criminal and is in fact, immoral.

	06-08-2003 21:38									#44
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i said it last time, and i'll say it again.

it was justified. my reasons are not "politically correct" by any liberal stretch of the imagination.

	06-08-2003 21:41									#45
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Yes.

	07-08-2003 00:55									#46
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quote: I believe you mean Kobe, which is part of the Osaka-Kyoto-Kobe triangle in the Kansai area, and a huge port-rail-industrial city, then and now.

Nah, I meant Kyoto. It was INITIALLY proposed, but tossed out in favor of Nagasaki by Henry Stimson.

	07-08-2003 01:00									#47
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mtg:

concerning the nuclear material i didn't mean that the japanese could have made an atomic bomb. i meant they could have used this material in 'dirty bombs' against the invading marines.

	07-08-2003 01:04									#48
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what do yall think of the theory that the nagasaki bomb was only dropped to show american dominance in the post-war world and scare the **** out of the soviets?

	07-08-2003 01:08									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer what do yall think of the theory that the nagasaki bomb was only dropped to show american dominance in the post-war world and scare the **** out of the soviets?

I think this was one of the reasons the decision to drop the bomb was made. And it was a legitimate, justifiable reason.

	07-08-2003 01:08									#50
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Aren't any of you history channel fanatics? One of their shows was great. It said that, in reality, the backup plan after Hiro/Naga was a long, protracted island invasion using a-bombs as advance artillery, which would have resulted in millions more dead on both sides and unbelievable radiation amounts.

	07-08-2003 01:11									#51
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Well, I feel that the war could've been ended without the droppings of the bombs if communications hadn't gotten garbled in the first place... but since it was......

There was a plan to use poison gas on the Japanese cities for a week before Operation Olympus. The estimated death toll from that? FIVE Million

Then there would be the invasion... expected US casualties? FIVE Hundred Thousand

Japanese casualties would likely be as high if not higher...

So altogether, the US effort to take Japan would've cost the lives of between 5.5-7 million people (American AND Japanese).

I do, however, feel that only one bomb was necessary. Or at the very least, the first bomb should've been used on a military target... should've waited one week, and then used it on a civilian target.

And it certainly bothers me that they made sure to pick pristine cities thus far unaffected by the intense firebombings that most of the other Japanese cities were subjected to. Like it or not, there was some sick puppies in the military (as there are in every military), who wanted to see how much damage these bad boys could do.

And also... there WAS a huge amount of racism towards the Japanese. It was a racist war on both sides. Take a look at the cartoon "Bugs Bunny Nips the Nips" and you'll see what I'm talking about... a study was done on US troops, and it was discovered that on average, an American soldier in the European theater felt bad about killing his enemy. In the Pacific theater, it was just the opposite. Every time one was killed, the soldier wanted to kill more. On the average... this is not to say every soldier was like that. But this also has a lot to do with the ferocity of the fighting in addition to racist opinions of the day.

	07-08-2003 01:12									#52
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quote: 500 Hundred Thousand

That is 50,000,000 people. I think you mean FIVE Hundred Thousand.

	07-08-2003 01:12									#53
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quote: Aren't any of you history channel fanatics? One of their shows was great. It said that, in reality, the backup plan after Hiro/Naga was a long, protracted island invasion using a-bombs as advance artillery, which would have resulted in millions more dead on both sides and unbelievable radiation amounts.

Well...... if the Japanese surrendered after two, don't you think they would've surrendered long before nukes could be used as advanced artillery??

	07-08-2003 01:14									#54
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Thanks Sava! I wrote it out numerically and then I decided to change it to words for more emphasis and I forgot about the first part...

	07-08-2003 01:17									#55
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quote: Well...... if the Japanese surrendered after two, don't you think they would've surrendered long before nukes could be used as advanced artillery??

The show also went in further about how Japan's military guys tried to completely rip the Emperor of all power--as the Emperor had announced his intentions to call for surrender to his cabinet. Mind you, Japan had not surrendered in a thousand years AFAIK, so this was quite something. Supposedly if there hadn't been an air raid that night before surrender, they would've been able to successfully complete the takeover and make the Emperor a puppet in his palace. It's a lot of detail, I can't explain it--a 2 hour show, man.

	07-08-2003 01:18									#56
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Dom Pedro:

where are you getting this info? the US had only one more half completed bomb after Nagasaki...

quote: and it was discovered that on average, an American soldier in the European theater felt bad about killing his enemy. In the Pacific theater, it was just the opposite. Every time one was killed, the soldier wanted to kill more.

i don't think this is solely the result of racism... the fact that the Japanese fought like inhuman killing machines probably also resulted in this attitude. i'm sure the german soldiers felt a little bad fighting americans and british but didn't give a damn about slaugtering the Russian hordes...

	07-08-2003 01:21									#57
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I wouldn't have wanted to be Truman, and be faced with that decision, I'll say that.

In the end, though, I think I would have dropped at least one of them.

Ideally, it would have been nice to have been able to demonstrate the destructive power of the weapon to the Japanese hierarchy w/o razing a city in the process. Realistically, I'm not sure that could have been done (but making the effort would have been nice... perhaps using that Swedish embassy to send a message to the Japanese to the effect of "watch this" and then dropping a bomb out to sea from Tokyo, far enough not to kill everybody, but close enough to see). But the idea that it would have been better to invade Japan conventionally is ludicrous. Yeah, much more humane! Let's get millions killed instead of a couple of hundred thousand. Yay!

-Arrian

	07-08-2003 01:25									#58
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Why do people point out Nagasaki and Hiroshima as ultimate major atrocities? The Allies firebombed Dresden using conventional means and killed more innocent civilians. In terms of atrocities in WW2, Nagasaki and Hiroshima are low on the list.

	07-08-2003 01:27									#59
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quote: the US had only one more half completed bomb after Nagasaki...

I wasn't saying they had more...

And I did make reference to the fact that of the ferocity of the Japanese in their fighting as being one of the other factors involved in why the research came out as it did. Yes, the Japanese did a lot of truly horrible things. There's no denying that...

Well, if anything the reason the Germans didn't care about slaughtering Russians was racist theory. The British were considered a tolerable sub-Aryan. The slavs were considered entirely expendable. Although, much of the army was not nearly as brain-washed as the Party in this drivel.

quote: I wouldn't have wanted to be Truman, and be faced with that decision, I'll say that.

I was going to say something like that earlier. I agree completely. I don't think I could do it... but then, thats why he was President, and I'm not nor will I be...

	07-08-2003 01:29									#60
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quote: Why do people point out Nagasaki and Hiroshima as ultimate major atrocities? The Allies firebombed Dresden using conventional means and killed more innocent civilians. In terms of atrocities in WW2, Nagasaki and Hiroshima are low on the list.

I think it's the raw power that nuclear weapons offered. True, Dresden killed more than Hiroshima and Nagasaki COMBINED... (excluding death due to radiation exposure years later). But the A-Bomb was basically the ultimate weapon... one that we should try to avoid using at all costs.