08-08-2003 06:31									#121
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MtG, the Joint Chiefs did not take a position of the use of the bomb because that was a decision beyond their competence, as George Marshall stated. However, all the top commanders did not think the bomb was necessary militarily. Most were appalled at it use on civilians.

Also, most of the commanders were convinced that the Japanese would have surrendered without an invasion regardless. Some thought they would surrender even without the declaration of war by the USSR. But most were convinced that whatever hope the Japanese had were finally dashed by that declaration. After it they clearly had no hope of retaining Chinese, Manchurian or Korean possessions. They already had no hope of defeating an American blockade. The only question was how much longer would the leadership continue to permit the people to suffer.

The bomb was not necessary from a military point of view. The consensus view at the time was that is was also not necessary from a political point of view.

	08-08-2003 06:55									#122
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If George Marshall said that, he was conveniently ducking the issue. The entire point of having a chief of staff structure is to act as military advisors to the President.

They are not in the chain of command, thus it would be outside their competence to attempt to issue or block from issuance any orders given through the chain of command, but it certainly is within their competence, in fact it's the core of their very function, to act as professional military advisors to the President. Actually running the services is what you have deputy chiefs of staff, and service G1 through G4 staffs for.

Certainly the Japanese would have surrendered, at some point. The question is when. My ex-brother in law, a ten year old at the time, was training with a bamboo spear right through August, and internal Japanese propaganda was still exhorting the people to turn in any type of metal they had so it could be recycled for war production.

This was already after they'd been hit up for all the gold, silver and jewelry any of them had, and many other things, and after they were already subject to severe food shortages. On the ground level, the people were still being exhorted to fight and die for the emperor, and propagandized about the defilement they would receive from the barbarian foreigners.

It's great to speculate after the fact, and a lot of people got willies after the fact, but you'll find damn little to nothing on the record (besides Oppenheimer) who actually spoke out to those in authority against the use of it. Especially once the Russians got the bomb, there was a lot of after the fact moralizing for public consumption.

	08-08-2003 06:58									#123
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MtG gets it.

	08-08-2003 07:02									#124
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Certainly the Japanese would have surrendered, at some point. The question is when. My ex-brother in law, a ten year old at the time, was training with a bamboo spear right through August, and internal Japanese propaganda was still exhorting the people to turn in any type of metal they had so it could be recycled for war production. This was already after they'd been hit up for all the gold, silver and jewelry any of them had, and many other things, and after they were already subject to severe food shortages. On the ground level, the people were still being exhorted to fight and die for the emperor, and propagandized about the defilement they would receive from the barbarian foreigners.

Now,
after all it seems only natural to me,
that Propaganda and training Civilists for the Defence of their country goes on even with talks about peace secretly going on.

Til the Point where the treaties of Capitulation de facto have been signed and there is no need to defend the country anymore.

After all it doesn´t sound to me like the WW2-Japan was a country, where such things like Capitulation where stuff to be discussed openly, but instead such things would be negotiated behind closed doors and kept secret till the end.

	08-08-2003 07:25									#125
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We're not talking training civil defense forces. We're talking training all boys from the age of ten to make mass suicide charges with bamboo spears.

At the top levels of government, there was serious talk of enforced national mass suicide, and self-destruction of the Japanese country and culture, rather than surrender. Those weren't a few isolated fanatics, they were a significant number of people in the seniormost levels of the government.

This was a country strongly influenced by Hagakure, you should read a translation of it. The training was not to fight, it was to commit mass suicide for the emperor in a "glorious" way.

This was the same country where just previously, Vice Admiral Ota Minoru and four thousand men of the IJN Okinawa district HQ committed mass suicide, and their actions weren't atypical.

	08-08-2003 07:25									#126
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but no MtG, they were just all innocent civies!

	08-08-2003 07:32									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Sava but no MtG, they were just all innocent civies!

They were, but too inclined to follow the leadership of the moment without question.

Great for the occupation forces, when we got to that phase, tough actually getting there.

I have uncles on each side of the family (all but one now dead) who fought them up close and personal.

	08-08-2003 07:37									#128
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat This was a country strongly influenced by Hagakure, you should read a translation of it. The training was not to fight, it was to commit mass suicide for the emperor in a "glorious" way. This was the same country where just previously, Vice Admiral Ota Minoru and four thousand men of the IJN Okinawa district HQ committed mass suicide, and their actions weren't atypical.

I´ve got the Hagakure as well as the Book of Five Rings and likewise readings about the Bushido, so I know what you mean.

Yes, I can imagine that many within the military would be opposed to Capitulation, cause it could be understood as a loss of Face, and AFAIK after the Capitulation there were many military leaders who commited seppuku.

As for the mass suicide, I rememmber reading of a likewise case in japanese history, where a daimyo was beleagured without hope to escape and so he gathered his most fellow retainers and his family in a large hall and they all commited Seppuku, after first being relkuctant and then having some old people giving an example by being the first to commit suicide.

Now, after all it is one more reason, to have Capitulation talks (if there are any) behind closed doors and keeping them absolutely secret.

	08-08-2003 08:46									#129
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The problem is keeping them secret from the hardcore in your own government, who actually run it.

Ni Ni Roku kind of gave carte blanche to any officer who felt it was his duty to assassinate any weenie officials, and secrets are very hard to keep.

From the US point of view, we knew some people within the government were trying to negotiate, but it doesn't do any good to make a deal with them (and you certainly can't slow up the war effort if it's a ruse or not) if they say "well, gee, we can't tell the hardasses who run the country because they'll kill us straightaway" - there was no reason for the US at the time to believe any real deal was on the table.

	08-08-2003 11:31									#130
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MtG, here is a transcipt of two of Truman's notes from the Potsdam Conference. Three things are notable:

1) Truman was aware of the peace feelers from the Emperor of Japan;
2) Truman intended to use the bomb regardless; and
3) He had ordered the bomb to be used on purely a military target - no women and children were to be harmed.

Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender?

Second, why was the target changed from a purely military target to one of mass slaughter? Even Truman seems aware from these notes that deliberately targeting civilians is morally wrong.

"JULY 18


Ate breakfast with nephew Harry, a sergeant in the field artillery. He is a good soldier and a nice boy. They took him off Queen Elizabeth at Glasgow and flew him here. Sending him home Friday.(4 ) Went to lunch with F.M. at 1:30, walked around to British headquarters. Met at the gate by Mr. Churchill. Guard of honor drawn up. Fine body of men - Scottish Guards. Band played "Star Spangled Banner." Inspected guard and went in for lunch. P.M. and I ate alone. Discussed Manhattan (it is a success). Decided to tell Stalin about it. Stalin had told F.M. of telegram from Jap emperor asking for peace.(5) Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time.

Stalin's luncheon was a most satisfactory meeting. I invited him to come to the U.S. Told him I'd send the battleship Missouri for him if he'd come. He said he wanted to cooperate with U.S. in peace as we had cooperated in war, but it would be harder. Said he was grossly misunderstood in U.S. and I was misunderstood in Russia. I told him that we each could help to remedy that situation in our home countries and that I intended to try with all I had to do my part at home. He gave me a most cordial smile and said he would do as much in Russia.(6)

We then went to the conference and it was my job to present the ministers' proposed agenda.(7 ) There were three proposals and I banged them through in short order, much to the surprise of Mr. Churchill. Stalin was very much pleased. Churchill was too, after he had recovered. I'm not going to stay around this terrible place all summer just to listen to speeches. I'll go home to the Senate for that.
JULY 25


We met at 11:00 a.m. today. That is, Stalin, Churchill, and the U.S. president. But I had a most important session with Lord Mountbatten and General Marshall before that. We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world. It may be the fire destruction prophesied in the Euphrates Valley era, after Noah and his fabulous ark. Anyway we think we have found the way to cause a disintegration of the atom. An experiment in the New Mexican desert was startling - to put it mildly. Thirteen pounds of the explosive caused the complete disintegration of a steel tower sixty feet high, created a crater six feet deep and twelve hundred feet in diameter, knocked over a steel tower a half mile away, and knocked men down ten thousand yards away. The explosion was visible for more than two hundred miles and audible for forty miles and more.

This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10. I have told the secretary of war, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop this terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.(8) He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I'm sure they will not do that, but we will have given them the chance. It is certainly a good thing for the world that Hitler's crowd or Stalin's did not discover this atomic bomb. It seems to be the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful."

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistl..._book_chap5.htm

	08-08-2003 11:34									#131
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ned,
you said:

quote: Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender?

MtG said:

quote: From the US point of view, we knew some people within the government were trying to negotiate, but it doesn't do any good to make a deal with them (and you certainly can't slow up the war effort if it's a ruse or not) if they say "well, gee, we can't tell the hardasses who run the country because they'll kill us straightaway" - there was no reason for the US at the time to believe any real deal was on the table.

there you go

	08-08-2003 11:44									#132
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On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians.

Why the discrepancy? Was Trumans note a CYA note? Or was his directive disobeyed?

July 25, 1945
To:General Carl Spaatz
Commanding General
United States Army Strategic Air Forces


1.The 509 Composite Group, 20th Air Force will deliver its first special bomb as soon as weather will permit visual bombing after about 3 August 1945 on one of the targets: Hiroshima, Kokura, Nugata and Nagasaki. To carry military and civilian scientific personnel from the War Department to observe and record the effects of the explosion of the bomb, additional aircraft will accompany the airplane carrying the bomb. The observing planes will stay several miles distant from the point of impact of the bomb.

2.Additional bombs will be delivered on the above targets as soon as made ready by the project staff. Further instructions will be issued concerning targets other than those listed above.

3.Dissemination of any and all information concerning the use of the weapon against Japan is reserved to the Secretary of War and the President of the United States. No communiques on the subject or releases of information will be issued by Commanders in the field without specific prior authority. Any news stories will be sent to the War Department for special clearance.

4.The foregoing directive is issued to you by direction and with the approval of the Secretary of War and of the Chief of Staff, USA. It is desired that you personally deliver one copy of this directive to General MacArthur and one copy to Admiral Nimitz for their information.

THOS. T. HANDY] General, G.S.C.
Acting Chief of Staff

http://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistl..._book_chap6.htm

	08-08-2003 11:48									#133
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K, again, the contact was made by the Emperor, not some lowly unauthorized clerk. MtG's rendition of the facts does not square with the record.

	08-08-2003 11:54									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, here is a transcipt of two of Truman's notes from the Potsdam Conference. Three things are notable: 1) Truman was aware of the peace feelers from the Emperor of Japan; 2) Truman intended to use the bomb regardless; and 3) He had ordered the bomb to be used on purely a military target - no women and children were to be harmed. Again, doesn't it seem very strange that Truman intended to go forward with the Bomb KNOWING that the Japanese wanted to surrender? [/url]

Now I know you're trolling, because I know you're not that dumb. Do you honest-to-God think Truman's shorthand note about being told by someone about a message "from the Jap emperor" meant that Hirohito himself had personally signed and sent the message? Hell, there was no way to even authenticate that if it had happened. Gee, let's hang our hat on Truman saying "from the Jap emperor" instead of being a Clintonesque lawyer "a purported message reported by the Soviets, allegedly from an unknown individual purporting to be communicating on behalf of the jap emperor that they were interested in possibly discussing peace" If that's what you've got to hang your hat on, good luck.

Hell, you should read it. Truman thinks they'll probably surrender after the bomb. Wooo, that's definite advance knowledge of the inner workings of the IJGS.

And as I've already said, the cables were "authorized" by the keeper of the Imperial seal, a glorified secretary, who had no authority or authorization from the head of the imperial household staff, who would have been the one (as only a few people were allowed to have direct contact with the emperor), who would have been the one to convey any actual order from the emperor.

	08-08-2003 11:57									#135
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quote: Originally posted by Ned K, again, the contact was made by the Emperor, not some lowly unauthorized clerk. MtG's rendition of the facts does not square with the record.

The Japanese record is clear. They're the ones who sent the cable and know who did what. I suppose among his many talents, the emperor was a trained telegrapher who had his own private line, and he sent messages all by his lonesome all the time, and our spy in his maid's quarters told Truman that months ahead of time.

How did he sign it: "Sincerely yours, Hiro"

	08-08-2003 12:05									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians.

Identify for me any spot in Japan where a 13 or 23 kiloton bomb could be set off against "purely military target" without civilians being around.

Or are you one of these pansies who figures because an enemy hides his military assets amongst the civilian population, they're automatically exempt?

I guess you'd have to be against every military intervention or attack by the US in the 20th and 21st centuries then.

Give it up, trolls don't work when you contradict your own earlier position.

Guess you'll be voting for Boxer and that porn star who filed for the governor's race then?

Besides, why rag on Truman, who's been dead over 30 years, when you can rag on Bush, who's here now?

	08-08-2003 12:07									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Ned On the same day that HST made the above note, we have this from his the Chief of Staff directing the bombing of Hiroshima or three other cities. None were purely military targets. All involved civilians. Why the discrepancy? Was Trumans note a CYA note? Or was his directive disobeyed?

His directive was that we couldn't drop it on the old capital (Kyoto) or the new (Tokyo) which had a much higher density of population overall, and in terms of military targets.

	08-08-2003 13:50									#138
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MtG, Both Stalin and Truman said the contact was from the Emperor. No one on the Allied side suggested that it was not from the Emperor and that it was instead completely unauthorized. You cannot deny this.

Second, it is clear that Truman was moving ahead with the bomb and showed no interest whatsoever in following up with the Soviets regarding the contact. Why no interest?

I cannot name a purely military target, but clearly Truman had ordered more than just stay away from Kyoto and Tokyo.

	08-08-2003 16:11									#139
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Another interesting thing is,
that Truman writes, that they will give a warning prior to the Bombings and ask Japan to surrender to save Lifes.

As far as my knowledge of History goes another thing that didn´t take place, as I never read, that Japan was warned or that they have been asked to Capitulate from US-Side a few days prior to the Bombings.

	08-08-2003 17:56									#140
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Fog of War. Hard to see things clearly during, much easier after it lifts.
I read through that entire site that was linked and remain unconvinced of many of the main points it was trying to prove. I might have lent it more credibility if it had been a bit more balanced.

	08-08-2003 18:00									#141
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"Surrender, or suffer swift and absolute destruction"

I think we did send something like that.

-Arrian

	08-08-2003 19:30									#142
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Yeah, the United States did issue a warning to them, telling them to surrender or face horrific consequences. As we know, they refused.

And I'm seeing a lot of talk about how the Japanese were ready to surrender: what makes you think that? The Home Islands were considered sacred. As MtG said, the Japanese civilians - male and female, boy and girl - to fight an invasion. You can try to rewrite history all you like, it won't change what really happened.

	08-08-2003 20:47									#143
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Verto, Clearly the Japanese military was fanatical and were willing to die - for what? For the Emperor. But THAT is precisely why the only person who could force a surrender on the Japanese side was the Emperor.

So, the Emperor contacts the Soviets and Stalin officially informs Truman. And we do NOTHING!

The record is abundantly clear that Truman intended to use the bomb regardless of the peace feelers by the one man in Japan who could authorize a surrender.

Now on to more disengenuousness. Truman orders the bomb be used against a pure military target to avoid killing women and children - at least according to his notes. His Chief of Staff then orders the bombing of Hiroshima, which we know, is not a pure military target. What does this imply?

1. Truman is lying in his diary to protect his reputation.
2. Truman is stupid in that he did not understand that Hiroshima was a city filled with women and children.
3. Truman's staff disobeyed his orders.
4. All of the above.

I simply am unwilling to believe 2 or 3. Meaning that Truman is a liar - lying to his own diary to protect his reputation.

Even after the bomb dropped, Truman kept up the deception in his announcement to the American people. He said a military target had been struck. He must have known that this was a lie. His people must have fully informed him of what had happened.

What are we to think of such a man?

	08-08-2003 20:49									#144
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hold on. are you under the assumption that we like Truman?

	08-08-2003 21:08									#146
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Here is a recording of his announcement - he says Hiroshima is a military base! F*cking liar!

http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/resources.htm

tab the resource button. Truman's speech is at the bottom of the first column.

	08-08-2003 21:11									#147
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No, what I am saying also is that Truman fully intended to use the bomb knowing that it would kill women and children - and he did this knowing that the Japanese would surrender if they could keep their Emperor. All this garbage about saving the lives of millions of Japanese and the US invasion force is just that, garbage.

The teachers of history since have sought to justify Truman's actions. But as the archives are opened, we learn the truth - the pure mendacity of this man.

	08-08-2003 21:28									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ned MtG, Both Stalin and Truman said the contact was from the Emperor. No one on the Allied side suggested that it was not from the Emperor and that it was instead completely unauthorized. You cannot deny this.

So what? It was impossible, by WW2 technology, to authenticate the originator of non-voice communications without use of code words known only to the sending and receiving parties in advance. Apparently, you're so caught up on semantics that it's an unshakeable foundation of your belief system that is someone said "from the emperor" (especially in an informal note a la Truman, who is getting third-hand information), that simply could not mean "supposedly from the emperor" or "from the emperor's office." Japanese documents have shown that the emperor did no more than listen to arguments and suggest to his stuff and the IJGS that they consult among themselves and report back to him, until after the bombs dropped.

By protocol dating back to the Heian period at least, the emperor himself rarely issued any kind of directive, even to his court or household staff because he didn't run the country anyway, and as a "god" it was beneath him to be concerned with mere human affairs. He was a symbolic head, who was subject to a rather perverse arrangement where he was a "living god" who happened to live only at the pleasure of the actual rulers.

quote: Second, it is clear that Truman was moving ahead with the bomb and showed no interest whatsoever in following up with the Soviets regarding the contact. Why no interest?

Sure, we should have granted them a cease fire, met in Paris to negotiate the shape of the meeting table, and given them as long as they wanted, while we had millions of troops still deployed in the field (subject to death and injury on a routine basis).

I would assume we had no interest in protracted BS fun and games, of unknown authority, when we had the means in hand to finish the damn war up and be done with it.

quote: I cannot name a purely military target, but clearly Truman had ordered more than just stay away from Kyoto and Tokyo.

Really? That's not what his own notes say.

	08-08-2003 21:29									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Here is a recording of his announcement - he says Hiroshima is a military base! F*cking liar! http://www.cccoe.k12.ca.us/abomb/resources.htm tab the resource button. Truman's speech is at the bottom of the first column.

Ever been there?

	08-08-2003 21:43									#150
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I'm sorry, MtG, but are you simply ignoring that the Stalin told Truman that they had received an a telegram from the Emperor. This is not intercepted communiques. Here is the exact quote from Truman's note.

"Stalin had told F.M. of telegram from Jap emperor asking for peace.(5) Stalin also read his answer to me. It was satisfactory. Believe Japs will fold up before Russia comes in. I am sure they will when Manhattan appears over their homeland. I shall inform Stalin about it at an opportune time."