07-08-2003 07:53									#61
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quote: Butternuts, boy.

Yeah, mine will melt in your mouth, *****!




:runs for dear life:

	07-08-2003 07:53									#62
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Oh crap, Sava

	07-08-2003 07:57									#63
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quote: Um, Episcopalian clergy are allowed to marry and have sex. Since marriage isn't an option yet for gays, Robinson's 13-year monogamous relationship with his partner is certainly, as far as I can see, as good. Add to that the fact that they are considering adopting a same-sex union ceremony, I think that it's well within their guidelines and standards to have a bishop who is gay. It's up to the denomination's faithful to determine what they want, and such democracy is hardly objectionable, as far as I can see.

He fornicates and everybody knows it. I wouldn't bust his balls about it, if he were lay and didn't have such a high teaching position in the church.

	07-08-2003 07:58									#64
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark On the other hand, the left wing and right wing products of a schism are likely to be less attractive for Jews assimilating/converting out than the original unsplit church But the appeal of the Episcopal church in particular probably has little to do with Jews assimilating/converting out.

Are you kidding? The Episcopal Church is so small that Jews in the US out-number us by at least 2 to 1. By random chance it is more likley that an Episcopal will convert to Judaism than vice versa.

	07-08-2003 07:59									#65
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So the least protestant of protestant churches (they have bishops, no?) did this....yeah, shows how enlightened protestants are Doc..

	07-08-2003 08:31									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So the least protestant of protestant churches (they have bishops, no?) did this....yeah, shows how enlightened protestants are Doc..

Hey, people are continually lumping us in with the rest.

If a preacher from some small fundamentalist sect comes to, let's say Australia and makes a row about creationism he's labeled a typical protestant, right? But if another protestant church does something revolutionary, well then that's obviously an anomaly that should be ignored, right? Don't mind me, I'm just checking on how enlightened your thinking is.

	07-08-2003 08:42									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Yeah, mine will melt in your mouth, *****! :runs for dear life:

Ohhhh, Savita mariquita, you wish.

	07-08-2003 08:45									#68
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sadly, I do...

	07-08-2003 09:01									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Hey, people are continually lumping us in with the rest. If a preacher from some small fundamentalist sect comes to, let's say Australia and makes a row about creationism he's labeled a typical protestant, right? But if another protestant church does something revolutionary, well then that's obviously an anomaly that should be ignored, right? Don't mind me, I'm just checking on how enlightened your thinking is.

No one I know would lump that freak in with the protestants, but with the evangelicals. Now, if you are an evangelicals, my condolences.

	07-08-2003 09:05									#70
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quote: Originally posted by GePap No one I know would lump that freak in with the protestants, but with the evangelicals. Now, if you are an evangelicals, my condolences.

IMO, a true Christian has to believe in things like creationism, if not, you don't believe in the Bible, and you admit it is not true, thereby proving that your religion is false.

Now, you can still believe in God without being a hypocrit, but you certainly cannot believe in Jesus and NOT believe in creationism without being hypocritical.

	07-08-2003 17:11									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sava IMO, a true Christian has to believe in things like creationism, if not, you don't believe in the Bible, and you admit it is not true, thereby proving that your religion is false. Now, you can still believe in God without being a hypocrit, but you certainly cannot believe in Jesus and NOT believe in creationism without being hypocritical.

Spoken like a true radical fundie! IIRC the Roman Ctholic Church officially gave it's recognition to evolutionary theory over a decade ago, so you are by logical conclusion, implying that Catholics aren't Christian. Ahhhhh, that reminds me of the good old days when I was 8 and had just moved down south. I was shocked that so many of my (predominantly fundamentalist) classmates disapproved of the election of John Kennedy to the presidency because they believed, as you, that Catholics couldn't rally be considered Christians.

	07-08-2003 17:52									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I've never heard of an anti-Israeli Episcopalian group. I doubt there's any real threat of that deverloping,

Perhaps my definition is different - I didnt mean one that calls explicitly for the destruction of Israel, but one that follows the National Council of Churches line of establishing moral equivalence between terrorism on the one hand, and Isaeli actions on the other. Perhaps i should have said "biased against Israel" or something like that, i was using a shorthand.

I would have to look up PECUSA or NCC statements to demonstrate what i mean. On the other hand i dont want to threadjack this to another mideast politics thread.

	07-08-2003 18:02									#73
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quote: IMO, a true Christian has to believe in things like creationism, if not, you don't believe in the Bible, and you admit it is not true, thereby proving that your religion is false. Now, you can still believe in God without being a hypocrit, but you certainly cannot believe in Jesus and NOT believe in creationism without being hypocritical.

the pope has stated that evolution is part of god's master plan.
furthermore, the catholic church holds that the bible is not to be taken literally necessarily, particularly many of the books such as revelations.

now, sava, if you want to say then that catholics are not christian, you are placing yourself in the same group with radical and not-so-radical christian fundamentalist groups such as the southern baptists, extremist mormons, and others.

	07-08-2003 18:16									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove OK, but let's hear no more foaming at the mouth rants about closed-minded protestants from you.

Please. Episcopalians aren't protestants; they're Catholics who haven't worked through their Oedipal crisis yet. I heartily salute the new bishop, but neither you nor he can take away my God-given right to mock Baptists.

	07-08-2003 18:22									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Now, you can still believe in God without being a hypocrit, but you certainly cannot believe in Jesus and NOT believe in creationism without being hypocritical.

Can you show me where in the New Testament Christ tells us that the Bible is literally true?

	07-08-2003 18:45									#76
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can i hear an amen to that?

	07-08-2003 22:29									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Half of Illinois, Indiana and Ohio was ours anyway, to some degree.

Had a delusional spell, didn't ya?

But in all seriousness, note the key word -- WAS.

	07-08-2003 22:42									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Spoken like a true radical fundie! IIRC the Roman Ctholic Church officially gave it's recognition to evolutionary theory over a decade ago, so you are by logical conclusion, implying that Catholics aren't Christian. Ahhhhh, that reminds me of the good old days when I was 8 and had just moved down south. I was shocked that so many of my (predominantly fundamentalist) classmates disapproved of the election of John Kennedy to the presidency because they believed, as you, that Catholics couldn't rally be considered Christians.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but most other Christians don't consider Catholics to be true Christians. Frankly, I don't consider Catholicism to be truly representative of Christianity, anyways. The church proved long ago that getting into heaven simply required large donations to the church. The Catholic church has been corrupt and defunked for centuries before they started sheltering child rapists. Even still, it's more about praising church leaders than praying to God. And look at the obscene luxury that the Pope lives in.

The ground rules for Christianity are simple. Accept the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ. If you don't do this, you aren't a true Christian. But being a true Christian isn't exactly a good thing.

So be proud that you are a hypocrit Doc... it's better than being an ignorant, brainwashed fundie.

	07-08-2003 22:49									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sorry to burst your bubble, but most other Christians don't consider Catholics to be true Christians. Frankly, I don't consider Catholicism to be truly representative of Christianity, anyways. The church proved long ago that getting into heaven simply required large donations to the church. The Catholic church has been corrupt and defunked for centuries before they started sheltering child rapists. Even still, it's more about praising church leaders than praying to God. And look at the obscene luxury that the Pope lives in.

Sounds like you're talking about the abuses that the Catholic Church carried out before its counter-reformations in the early modern era, and not that of today's Catholic Church.

With maybe the exception of the Pope living in luxury and pedophilia.

	07-08-2003 22:50									#80
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun Sounds like you're talking about the abuses that the Catholic Church carried out before its counter-reformations in the early modern era, and not that of today's Catholic Church.

Does the modern era include turning a blind eye to Fascism in WW2?

quote: With maybe the exception of the Pope living in luxury and pedophilia.

I'm not saying Catholics themselves aren't good people or faithful, I'm saying the church is corrupt and not representative of the values in the Bible.

	07-08-2003 22:52									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Sorry to burst your bubble, but most other Christians don't consider Catholics to be true Christians. Frankly, I don't consider Catholicism to be truly representative of Christianity, anyways. The church proved long ago that getting into heaven simply required large donations to the church. The Catholic church has been corrupt and defunked for centuries before they started sheltering child rapists. Even still, it's more about praising church leaders than praying to God. And look at the obscene luxury that the Pope lives in. The ground rules for Christianity are simple. Accept the Bible, God, and Jesus Christ. If you don't do this, you aren't a true Christian. But being a true Christian isn't exactly a good thing. So be proud that you are a hypocrit Doc... it's better than being an ignorant, brainwashed fundie.

Well, this is just so much...what's the word I'm looking for?...bollocks? Yes, that'll do nicely.

Let me get this straight: Catholicism's around for about a thousand years -- it IS Western Christianity -- before the Protestants decide to break from it, and now the Catholics aren't really Christian? I suppose the same goes for the various Orthodox churches? Only the Protestants are real Christians, and we know this because we've been told it ... by the Protestants? I don't think so.

	07-08-2003 22:52									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Does the modern era include turning a blind eye to Fascism in WW2? I'm not saying Catholics themselves aren't good people or faithful, I'm saying the church is corrupt and not representative of the values in the Bible.

Got news for ya -- not all Catholic clergy turned their backs to those suffering persecution during World War II. Yes, the official policy of the Catholic Church may have been to turn away, but not all Catholic priests, nuns, and monks followed this policy -- they had a stronger sense of human decency.


But as long as you're not lumping all Catholics together . . . oh wait, you did with your statement regarding World War II.

	07-08-2003 22:56									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Does the modern era include turning a blind eye to Fascism in WW2?

It's amazing how often this falsehood crops up.

	07-08-2003 22:57									#84
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quote: Let me get this straight: Catholicism's around for about a thousand years -- it IS Western Christianity -- before the Protestants decide to break from it, and now the Catholics aren't really Christian? I suppose the same goes for the various Orthodox churches? Only the Protestants are real Christians, and we know this because we've been told it ... by the Protestants? I don't think so.

If something has been corrupt and misrepresentative for a thousand years, the time of existence is irrelevant. And no, I did not say Protestants are real Christians... I'm speaking solely about the Catholic church...

MrFUN: I am speaking of the CHURCH institution... not the members. Learn to read.

You guys are both misinterpreting what I am saying. A true Christian accepts the Bible, God, and Jesus as truth. Anyone who doesn't (regardless of denomination) isn't a TRUE Christian, but a hypocrit.

	07-08-2003 22:57									#85
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's amazing how often this falsehood crops up.

Are you going to offer any points or just unsubstantiated denials?

	07-08-2003 22:58									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Are you going to offer any points or just unsubstantiated denials?

I could but you wouldn't listen. So what's the point.

	07-08-2003 22:59									#87
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I could but you wouldn't listen. So what's the point.

I might surprise you.

	07-08-2003 23:03									#88
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I guess Sava didn't want to listen to my last post, either.

	07-08-2003 23:04									#89
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quote: A true Christian accepts the Bible, God, and Jesus as truth. Anyone who doesn't (regardless of denomination) isn't a TRUE Christian, but a hypocrit.

I agree. At least for anyone that continues to practice and has gone through comfirmation. Just listen to the Lord's Prayer...

Also, what is the oath a Catholic takes to become a Preist... Faith is faith, and if they say the believe in and follow the Bible, except the parts the don't like, the are hypocrits... IMO, though, that makes most Christians hypocrits as they continue to reinterpret the text as they see fit... The "word' of god my ass.

	07-08-2003 23:29									#90
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark the real question Is it good for the Jews?

Why is it the real question? Who cares about the Jews? They've got their own problems without meddling in other people's religious affairs.

Why is it assumed that we must care about what the Jews think, as opposed to the Buddhists or Animists or Zoroastrians (three cheers for Ahura Mazda!!)?