08-08-2003 05:49									#1
	The beginning of the end for Fidel? Full PM-box? Change here!

The linked story reports that Eloy Gutierrez Menoyo has returned to Cuba to stay and will work for democratic reform. He is a former anti-Bastista commander who himself revolted against Castro. He seems generally dedicated to democracy, but he is also anti-American.

Who is this guy and does he represent real hope for Cuba?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/ameri...xile/index.html

	08-08-2003 06:05									#2
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Probably not. Castro, as has been observed, is immortal. He will only Ascend when He chooses.

it could be a while

(Seriously, still, no.)

	08-08-2003 06:40									#3
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Che, I hope you respond to my question - who is this man? He was, after all, part of the revolution.

	08-08-2003 08:34									#4
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Other fellow members of the group that overturned Batista have broken with Castro long ago.

He is no more a threat than any of the current dissidents.

	08-08-2003 09:44									#5
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GePap, but why in the world would he be both anti-Castro and anti-American as well? Where does this lead?

	08-08-2003 09:50									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Ned GePap, but why in the world would he be both anti-Castro and anti-American as well? Where does this lead?

The US won't let him form a democratic government and will set up a Batista-like dicatorship so US corporation can pay thier workers 10 cents per day. Sadly, I fear the US will do the same as the did in many other contries, set up a pro-US dictator to make it free for corporate greed.

	08-08-2003 19:48									#7
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I predicted way back in 1993 that Fidel woould fall within a couple of years.

Ive given up on the Fidel guessing game

	08-08-2003 20:52									#8
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Why should a Cuban, even an anti-Castro one, NOT be anti-American?

The US backed the Batista regime. After it fell, the US attempted to claim ownership of Cuban assets: the assets of investment in that regime. Cubans understandably feel that they deserve those assets, and this was a major factor in the falling-out between Cuba and the US, and the subsequent economic sanctions against Cuba.

Many Cubans feel that they don't owe the US one cent (if anything, the US owes them reparations).

The sanctions, and the claim on Cuban assets, were a political bungle of monumental proportions by the US. And as long as this madness continues, plenty of Cubans will be anti-American.

	08-08-2003 21:00									#9
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quote: Why should a Cuban, even an anti-Castro one, NOT be anti-American?

This is funny. This guy has been living in Florida raising a family for the last couple of decades and he's anti-American?

Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

	08-08-2003 21:13									#10
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Nice selective quoting, DanS. And besides, living in western civilization has never implied a love for it. Hell, just look at Osama Bin Laden.

	08-08-2003 21:28									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Why should a Cuban, even an anti-Castro one, NOT be anti-American? The US backed the Batista regime. After it fell, the US attempted to claim ownership of Cuban assets: the assets of investment in that regime. Cubans understandably feel that they deserve those assets, and this was a major factor in the falling-out between Cuba and the US, and the subsequent economic sanctions against Cuba. Many Cubans feel that they don't owe the US one cent (if anything, the US owes them reparations). The sanctions, and the claim on Cuban assets, were a political bungle of monumental proportions by the US. And as long as this madness continues, plenty of Cubans will be anti-American.

I'm sorry, Jack, but I could use some help here. What the hell are you talking about?

	08-08-2003 21:50									#12
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quote: I'm sorry, Jack, but I could use some help here. What the hell are you talking about?

it looks like hes talking about history to me



imo castro will be replaced by another red, prolly a slioghtly more progressive one, but still a red.

	08-08-2003 22:15									#13
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Andy, the question I have is what are the alleged "Cuban assets" that the US laid claim to. If he is talking about American-owned businesses and property in Cuba, I think that Jack has a bit of explaining to do as I do not understand the Cuban position.

	08-08-2003 22:26									#14
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Yes, American-owned businesses and property in Cuba.

The Batista regime kept the people in poverty, and wealth concentrated in a small number of hands, both Cuban and American. All forms of corruption were rampant. Redistribution of wealth and opportunity was a part of what the revolution was about. Nationalization of assets was inevitable.

The US should have accepted that. Redistribution was necessary. There is a moral here: don't invest in regimes which deny the workers a fair share in the businesses they're working in. Or, if you do: prepare to get burned if they take over.

	09-08-2003 05:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless Yes, American-owned businesses and property in Cuba. The Batista regime kept the people in poverty, and wealth concentrated in a small number of hands, both Cuban and American. All forms of corruption were rampant. Redistribution of wealth and opportunity was a part of what the revolution was about. Nationalization of assets was inevitable. The US should have accepted that. Redistribution was necessary. There is a moral here: don't invest in regimes which deny the workers a fair share in the businesses they're working in. Or, if you do: prepare to get burned if they take over.

Jack, no one doubts that governments have a right to expropriate property for social or other purposes. However, they owe their prior owners just compensation. This is universally recognized attribute of civilized governments. Expropriation of property without compensation is a violation of international law and can amount to an act of war.

I don't think this issue is going to go away anytime soon. To the extent that US hostility and sanctions have caused Cuba harm far exceeding the value of the property they stole from Americans, all I can say is this is just payment for the barbarity and ideologically driven theft of Fidel Castro.

This said, as soon as that monstrosity is gone and the Cuban people are again allowed democracy and true representative government, I personally would be in favor of using US resources to help Cuba pay reparations to the Americans they stole from.

	09-08-2003 05:38									#16
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I'm in favor of Cuba continuing to be Communist. Oh, if only we could clone Fidel, then we could have Fidel 2 be his successor. Seriously, without Fidel around, it's just not the same.

	09-08-2003 05:53									#17
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 I'm in favor of Cuba continuing to be Communist. Oh, if only we could clone Fidel, then we could have Fidel 2 be his successor. Seriously, without Fidel around, it's just not the same.

It would be interesting to see what kind of government the Cubans would elect if they had the right to vote and the exiles has a right of return. I think the Cubans need a little more political freedom and a lot less communism.

	09-08-2003 08:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Odin The US won't let him form a democratic government and will set up a Batista-like dicatorship so US corporation can pay thier workers 10 cents per day. Sadly, I fear the US will do the same as the did in many other contries, set up a pro-US dictator to make it free for corporate greed.

Anyone with half a brain knows that's a bunch of nonsense. If that were true, how come we didn't just install dictators in Iraq and Afghanistan, or all in Western Europe and Japan? Panama? Grenada?

	09-08-2003 08:09									#19
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"It would be interesting to see what kind of government the Cubans would elect if they had the right to vote and the exiles has a right of return. I think the Cubans need a little more political freedom and a lot less communism."

Think we should do something to speed this along? Also, isn't Cuba armed with a few nuc bombs? I heard that if Kennedy had sent in the marines that Castro had nukes he would use on the invasion beaches. Though I've wondered if this isn't more lefty revisionist history plastering the cracks in Kennedy's facade.

	09-08-2003 08:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "It would be interesting to see what kind of government the Cubans would elect if they had the right to vote and the exiles has a right of return. I think the Cubans need a little more political freedom and a lot less communism." Think we should do something to speed this along? Also, isn't Cuba armed with a few nuc bombs? I heard that if Kennedy had sent in the marines that Castro had nukes he would use on the invasion beaches. Though I've wondered if this isn't more lefty revisionist history plastering the cracks in Kennedy's facade.

All the plaster in the world can't fill in the cracks in JFK's facade.

edit: I sure wished they would ditch those ****ing hats on the smilies.

	09-08-2003 15:32									#21
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Lancer, those were Soviet nukes. They were withdrawn. In exchange, Kennedy promised not to invade Cuba.

My only question is, does this guarantee expire with Castro?

	09-08-2003 15:55									#22
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There's no-one who's going to demand it be followed anyway - the Soviet Union is dead.

	09-08-2003 19:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Jack, no one doubts that governments have a right to expropriate property for social or other purposes. However, they owe their prior owners just compensation. This is universally recognized attribute of civilized governments. Expropriation of property without compensation is a violation of international law and can amount to an act of war. I don't think this issue is going to go away anytime soon. To the extent that US hostility and sanctions have caused Cuba harm far exceeding the value of the property they stole from Americans, all I can say is this is just payment for the barbarity and ideologically driven theft of Fidel Castro. This said, as soon as that monstrosity is gone and the Cuban people are again allowed democracy and true representative government, I personally would be in favor of using US resources to help Cuba pay reparations to the Americans they stole from.

Again??

And Cuban reparations to Americans they stole from? How about American reparations to the Cubans they stole from during the Batista regime?

	09-08-2003 20:45									#24
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GT, Good point.

Hueij, so all Americans are to be punished if they invest outside the US, is that your point? What are you, an idiot?

	09-08-2003 20:47									#25
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Just as a personal comment, I find it very difficult to stay a member of this forum. The leftist bullcraps is so deep here that it is really depressing.

	09-08-2003 21:08									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Just as a personal comment, I find it very difficult to stay a member of this forum. The leftist bullcraps is so deep here that it is really depressing.

Keep the faith bro! Lurking everywher is the silent majority.

	09-08-2003 21:14									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Just as a personal comment, I find it very difficult to stay a member of this forum. The leftist bullcraps is so deep here that it is really depressing.

Sorry Ned, but what is depressing is people who fail to see beyond their own prejudices when rpesented with arguements or evidence. Everyon in this board is biased one way or the other: the question is, to do accept the arguements others make in good faith or not, and how do you handle them.

	09-08-2003 21:15									#28
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Keep the faith bro! Lurking everywher is the silent majority.

And by their silence, makes it impossible for anyone to gage their ideas and their opinions. Thus no one can really say anything for them.

	09-08-2003 21:28									#29
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Castro will be ruling Cuba when we have our next president.

It's so tiring to see this hag dressed as a man still a ruler of Cuba (sigh).

	09-08-2003 22:06									#30
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And by their silence, makes it impossible for anyone to gage their ideas and their opinions. Thus no one can really say anything for them.

Touche.

Here it is then. Cuba has recovered well from the fall of the USSR. They have been quietly garnering allies and friends in central and south america. Their present form of government is entrenched and will likely survive Castro. IMO, economic pressure will increase on them to formulate change only when the embargo is lifted. The US will do this, but only after Castro's demise. It will happen in stages that will appear to benefit the expatriates in order not to lose their support. Eventually the government in Cuba will eithier reform or become economically dependent on the US. Should the later happen, then the chances of a Batista like regime coming to power increase.

The impact of dissidents is hard to gauge in a post-Castro cuba because the strategic alliances that will bring them power will most likely have ties with some in the current government. This is impossible to tell at this juncture due to the closed nature of the current government.