11-08-2003 18:38									#61
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Not all tales of the conditions in prisons or the experiences of prisoners should be regarded as the undisputable truth.

Inmates always complain, whether it has merit or not.

But then I agree that US prison conditions probably aren't like your average holiday resort. Whether or not that's the way it should be is in the eye of the beholder I guess...

Maybe people should try a little harder to stay out.

	11-08-2003 18:40									#62
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I think the absurdity begins when they sentence him for 8 years for causing $500 damage.

the smaller the crime the harder it is punished

ok not really, but if you fraud 500 Million Dollars I am sure they treat you with velvet gloves.

	11-08-2003 18:43									#63
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quote: Maybe people should try a little harder to stay out.

harder to stay out, I guess it shouldnt be sooo easy to get in.
I mean $500 and 8 years?

Luckily thats where I say: thats the US and thats Europe (Austria), that wont happen here.

	11-08-2003 18:51									#64
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Same goes for Germany.

And if you´ve got a youth to go to Prison, they go to special Youth-Prisons and aren´t thrown into a jail full of grown up Criminals.

You also don´t hear of many Rapes in our Prisons. If there are Crimes within Prisons, it is mostly Drug Trafficking, and this happens mostly in the special Prisons reserved forthosepeople who are sentenced for Life, but you hear seldom of any cases of Prison Rape.

Maybe your raped Prisoners should ask for Asylum in an european Prison

	11-08-2003 18:56									#65
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That certainly sounds like an extreme (though inexcusable) case. 8 yrs for $500 of damage is waaaaaay high. Could it be there is a bit more to the story? Or could it be that the judge was on the warpath for some reason? It just sounds fishy to me, that's all.

-Arrian

	11-08-2003 19:02									#66
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Could it be that the mother has an interest in downplaying her son's culpability?

Just a thought.

	11-08-2003 19:07									#67
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Methinks that things were left out by mommie, yeah.

That doesn't make the prison rape ok, mind you.

-Arrian

	11-08-2003 19:10									#68
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No, but perhaps it makes the whole story a little less worthy of mass hysteria.

	11-08-2003 19:14									#69
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quote: Maybe people should try a little harder to stay out.

...which is nowhere harder than in the USA:

quote: About 1 in every 110 men and 1 in every 1,656 women were sentenced prisoners under the jurisdiction of State or Federal authorities. Overall, the United States incarcerated 2,166,260 persons at yearend 2002.

source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/p02.txt

	11-08-2003 19:15									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Methinks that things were left out by mommie, yeah. That doesn't make the prison rape ok, mind you. -Arrian

Probably her Son has done several other criminal things before, but was too young to be sentensced for them and this led to the higher Sentence.

It would make sense.

At least if the judge wasn´t just some kind of frustrated arse who thinks the higest penalty is always the best Solution (or of course he was some kind of Racist and the Kid wasn´t white )

	11-08-2003 19:19									#71
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oedo,

I'm aware of those figures, they kind of substantiate the point I made.

	11-08-2003 20:25									#72
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quote: Probably her Son has done several other criminal things before, but was too young to be sentensced for them and this led to the higher Sentence. It would make sense. At least if the judge wasn´t just some kind of frustrated arse who thinks the higest penalty is always the best Solution (or of course he was some kind of Racist and the Kid wasn´t white )

Yeah, I considered the last two possibilities as well (hardass judge/racist judge). Both are entirely possible. Perhaps if you combine:

-prior criminal record
-hardass judge (believes in high penalties)
-racism

you might get 8yrs for a dumpster fire. But even then it sounds quite extreme (even for the evil, evil United States! ) to me.

-Arrian

	11-08-2003 20:38									#73
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Whether he deserved 8 yrs is irrelevant. The issue is whether the state should take more steps to contain violence within prisons.

	11-08-2003 20:38									#74
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you know, i'll start worrying about prison rape once we figure out how to stop recidivism, homelessness, and eliminate creature comforts in prison like cable tv.

	11-08-2003 21:14									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed you know, i'll start worrying about prison rape once we figure out how to stop recidivism, homelessness, and eliminate creature comforts in prison like cable tv.

God knows that prison life is so comfortable.

Prison rape is a major cause of recidivism. People become violent in order to keep from getting raped, or raped again. The only thing our prison system is good for is turning non-violent offenders into violent criminals and violent criminals into even scarier people.

	11-08-2003 21:22									#76
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quote: Whether he deserved 8 yrs is irrelevant. The issue is whether the state should take more steps to contain violence within prisons.

True. I just found that part interesting/worthy of comment. The basic point of the thread (prison rape = bad) isn't really debatable.

-Arrian

	11-08-2003 21:30									#77
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Prison rape was a major factor in the creation of the jouvenile system. Kids simply should not be put in prison with adults. Not that it's absent there. AFrontline episode followed several kids going through jouvie, and one kid who was in on a marijuana posession charge ended up having to stay because he was ordered by a gang to either rape his roommate or be raped by them. So he forced his roommate to gie him head at knifepoint (it was a shiv). Over the course of the show we watched this self-assured, bright, funny, individual slowly become withdrawn, fearful, and angry.

Lazy politicians cruise to electoral victory on the backs of Law & Order and get tough on criminals. All it's done is create an engorged pison population and done nothing to stem the tide of crime. And then these people get out, and inflict their vengence upon us.

But of course, people will say, if you can't do the time, don't do the crime, which is true. But what happens to us when those people get out? They're angrier, stronger, and more violent. Are we safer now? Are we better off because of how we treated them? Are they less likely to committ a crime than before?

	11-08-2003 21:30									#78
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quote: God knows that prison life is so comfortable. Prison rape is a major cause of recidivism. People become violent in order to keep from getting raped, or raped again. The only thing our prison system is good for is turning non-violent offenders into violent criminals and violent criminals into even scarier people.

it's the same rationale why i couldn't give a rat's ass about animal rights until after everybody gets the human rights they ought to be accorded.

at least the ones in prison have a roof over their heads, a bed, central air and heat, three meals a day, a toilet, a shower, and running water.
how many of the homeless have that?

so the social conditions are godawful. at least their basest necessities are being met. get the homeless off the streets and in the shelters, give them all of that, and then we'll talk about fixing our broken prison system.

	11-08-2003 21:32									#79
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It also depends on who your parents are/know/could possibly knock up (cell-phone style, you pervs).

For example. Zsa Zsa Gabor got community service and a paltry (relative to her income) for slapping a cop (who, incidentally, didn't deserve it).

Then the next person who slaps that cop, let's call her Winnie, gets 8 years for assault, plus regular beatings and rape at the hands of the cop's friends to 'pay her back' for all the pain and suffering caused to said cop.

That's Justice. Hear that? JUSTICE.

	11-08-2003 21:35									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed so the social conditions are godawful. at least their basest necessities are being met. get the homeless off the streets and in the shelters, give them all of that, and then we'll talk about fixing our broken prison system.

You miss the whole point about it being harmful to you. Directly, in that you could be convicted of a crime you didn't committ (as happens far too frequently - if death penalty sentences are anything to go by, about 1/3rd of all people in prison are there wrongly).

It also harms you by making people into more dangerous criminals, which again, affects your safety. Homeless people aren't as likely to hurt you as an ex-con is.

Anyway, just because there's a hierarchy of wrongs doesn't mean we ignore ones lower on the totem pole until the ones on top are fixed.

	11-08-2003 21:38									#81
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quote: Maybe people should try a little harder to stay out.

I know prison conditions aren't the best, but there are some repeat offenders who just have no care about going to jail. Perhaps if the prisons were like Alcatraz was then there would be less prisonoers...

Personally, I feel that once someone is accussed of a crime they no longer have any (well, very few) rights. When a person decides to remove themselves from a system, then they are removed from the system... It's a terrible doublestandard that they are allowed to defy the law and then expect it to work in their favor once it suits them.

	11-08-2003 21:42									#82
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Re: tiny's article and the ensuing debate:

I think it's rather superficial to automatically regard prison inmates as sorry victims of the tough conditions.

And you don't suddenly lose responsibility for your future actions because you've done time in a rough environment.

	11-08-2003 21:44									#83
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quote: You miss the whole point about it being harmful to you. Directly, in that you could be convicted of a crime you didn't committ (as happens far too frequently - if death penalty sentences are anything to go by, about 1/3rd of all people in prison are there wrongly). It also harms you by making people into more dangerous criminals, which again, affects your safety. Homeless people aren't as likely to hurt you as an ex-con is.

i don't disagree with most of what you say. yes, prison rape makes criminals worse. what am i supposed to do about it? if we need to give them therapy after the incident, sure, go ahead. if we need to listen to the victims more, sure, go ahead. i'm don't care.
i just don't think it's worth as much time to me as it is in getting people off the streets, giving them a place to live.

simply put, i can't do much about prison rape. i can help an "urban camper", as the city of atlanta calls them, in getting to a shelter and helping him out.

	11-08-2003 21:49									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Winston And you don't suddenly lose responsibility for your future actions because you've done time in a rough environment.

That's a cold comfort to the person who gets knocked upside the head by an angry ex-Con.

"Gee, this guy's murdering me. Well at least I know he's responsible for his own actions. What a fool I was thinking that maybe if prison hadn't been so inhumane, he wouldn't be killing me now."

That's the problem with you vengence types, you think with your heart, not with your head. It's all about individual responsibility and punishment with you people, not about making society safer. Well I want to live in a safer place, so bite me if I'm concerned about how poorly we treat prisoners.

	11-08-2003 21:54									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Perhaps if the prisons were like Alcatraz was then there would be less prisonoers.

That's the kind of thinking we've had for the last 30 years, which has lead to an quintupling of the prison population and an increase in recidivism. It's an utterly failed policy which continues to get play only because people are scared of crime.

Don't get me wrong, crime is scary. All I did was get popped in the face in an attempted mugging, and yet the thought of what might have happened to me had I not escaped gives me chills. Do I wanna see those ****ers pay, you bet your ass. Do I want them to become even more dangerous, and next time not fail in their assult? Hell no. Better that prison gives them a chance to striaghten themselves out and become productive citizens than turns them into monsters, which is what it does now, thanks to our tough on crime and criminals policies.

	11-08-2003 21:59									#86
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chegitz guevara,

You don't know me, kindly stop acting like you do.

I wasn't adressing you BTW, so move along.

	11-08-2003 22:02									#87
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Funny, I notice no-one had a response to my post. Come on, guys, don't you want another shot at the b1tch who slapped you?

You were all so daring and brave when I was strapped down to a gurney taking turns with me, what happened? Is it because I'm not tied down and drugged? What's wrong? What are you thinking?

Why is it so quiet in here? When did it get so cold?

It's just like being six feet under...

	11-08-2003 22:05									#88
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quote: That's the kind of thinking we've had for the last 30 years, which has lead to an quintupling of the prison population and an increase in recidivism. It's an utterly failed policy which continues to get play only because people are scared of crime.

Prisons and Prisoners rights have improved in the last 30 years so how has that thinking been applied in the last 30 years?

Reform doesn't occur in prison, networking does. As well as drug abuse, gay sex, cable t.v. watching.

3 squares a day, books to read, computers to play on, t.v. to wathc, gym equipment, basketball courts... Sounds like an All-Inclusive getaway to me...

the prison system doesn't work, because "grounding" someone, or sending them to their room does nothing. This does not make them responsible for their actions because the punishment does not suit the crime.

eye for an eye I say...

Convicted of stealing? Cut off a hand
Convicted of killing? Cut off a head

Would really throw the 3 strikes law right out the window...

	11-08-2003 22:08									#89
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I hear ya, Solomon. I'm right there with you.

	11-08-2003 22:15									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Prisons and Prisoners rights have improved in the last 30 years so how has that thinking been applied in the last 30 years?

Oh yes, their rights have been so improved. . . legally. Of course, in actuality, getting someone to listen to complaints about the abuse of their rights fall on deaf ears, like yours. "Oh, we're coddling the poor babies."

Prisoner overcrowding is rampant. Sure, we now recognize this is an abuse of their rights. Does that mean it stops? No. Prisoners get inadequate medical care. It's a human rights violation, but it doesn't stop. Torture of prisoners, well we all know prisoners are liars, so we don't have to investigate those claims, especially since the guards say they aren't torturing anyone. And they're an objective source. And what prisoners do to each other . . . ., but we don't need to protect them from that.

It's really simply human psychology. If you take people and put lots of them together in a very small place, they get very squirrelly. If these people are violent on top of that, well then things get very bad very quickly. As we know, people who suffer from repeated trauma quickly become damaged people.

And the proof is in the pudding. Prison has been a spectacular failure in the last 30 years. They have become crime factories, turning out ever more dangerous and desperate and violent criminals, who then prey upon the innocent.

But, hey, who cares about the innocent as long as we can have our vengence, right? No point making the world safer as long as I can claim there's "justice." An eye for an eye may be Biblical justice, but in this case, you're putting out your own eye.