12-08-2003 01:33									#91
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After watching the Hercules TV series, anything is possible!

In any case I think all of our 3 suggestions are way better than the ones they chose!!!

	12-08-2003 04:30									#92
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How about Casper Van Dien. He played a very convincing Marine captain in Under Heavy Fire.

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	12-08-2003 06:49									#93
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Azazel:

you do realize the descendents of the Phoenicians are the Palestinians and the Lebanese right?

	12-08-2003 07:30									#94
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Who's Casper? Is he a friendly ghost or an unfriendly ghost?

	12-08-2003 07:31									#95
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quote: Originally posted by st_swithin Who's Casper? Is he a friendly ghost or an unfriendly ghost?

Friendly ghost -- he and Barney would make good pals.

	12-08-2003 07:35									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident the Jews are protesting the Mel Gibson movie because it paints the jews in a bad light. But they were responsible for Jesus being killed weren't they? Or were they just indirectly responsible? I don't know **** about religion.

Some contemporary Jews may or may not have been responsible (no reliable documentation really exists). Jews in general are in no way responsible for anything that happenned before they were born. Duh.

	12-08-2003 07:36									#97
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There are some Jews I guess, who think you're anti-Semitic if you acknowledge the historical fact that there were some people who were advocating Jesus' execution, who were Jewish.

	12-08-2003 07:37									#98
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, I think that many of his mercenaries were indeed dark-skinned african, or at least half-and-half. Where did the numidians live at this time? I could never figure that out.

Numidia was in North Africa near Mauretania and Carthage.

Nubia was to the south of Aegyptus.

	12-08-2003 07:54									#99
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I have never confused the two.

	12-08-2003 07:58									#100
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near Mauretania and Carthage? there's hundreds of miles of space between these two areas... a region called ALGERIA which is exactly where i said Numidia was...

	12-08-2003 08:14									#101
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Re Commodus:

He wasn't killed in the gladiator arena at all, he was strangled to death by an athlete named Narcissus in either his bed or his bath. It was one of many assassination plots against him orchestrated by the praetorian prefect Laetus.

Commodus had become such a megalomaniacal madman that everyone wanted him gone. He was far more interesting than the film depicted. If they had shown him as he was, he would have stolen the film.

Re Alexander:

Keeping in mind the concept of "homosexuality" didn't exist back then, we know that Alexander did have a same-sex relationship with Hephaestion, and this relationship was among his life's most critical and intimate. Yes, Alexander married and sired children, but Hephaestion was by all accounts his greatest love. If the film wishes to be accurate, it should depict it.

Last edited by Boris Godunov on 12-08-2003 at 08:22

	12-08-2003 08:24									#102
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Boris:

you're right about him being strangled but its easy to make the mistake that he died in the ring because one, he was killed by an athlete, and two, commodus was known to go down to gladiator arenas and fight with gladiators (in, i assume, fixed battles)

its weird how the crazy nut Commodus was the son of probably the most intelligent and philosophical of the emperors, marcus aurelius... i read something before though about how aurelius' wife was known to have affairs with gladiators though... is it possible that Commodus was actually the son of some unknown gladiator?

it similiar to how the Ottomon sultans before and including Suleiman were so capable and among the most abled monarchs in the world at the time and yet, nearly every sultan after Suleiman was a decadent sin-aholic with nearly no ruling abilities... and whats notable about this is that Suleiman's wife was known to have affairs...

as for alexander... the thing that i'm worried about is a mis-understanding of history that people will take from an Alexander movie that protrays him having a homosexual relationship... if it is not shown that most other greeks had similiar relationships, one would think that Alexander was notable in having a homosexual relationship (or that he was truly gay rather than bisexual if his wives are never shown) even though it was greek culture.

	12-08-2003 08:26									#103
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Barney and Smoochy...Smoochy and Barney...does anyone else see the resemblance?

	12-08-2003 08:29									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer as for alexander... the thing that i'm worried about is a mis-understanding of history that people will take from an Alexander movie that protrays him having a homosexual relationship... if it is not shown that most other greeks had similiar relationships, one would think that Alexander was notable in having a homosexual relationship (or that he was truly gay rather than bisexual if his wives are never shown) even though it was greek culture.

Whether or not Alexander's relationship with Hephaestion was typical of the Greeks (and really, it wasn't) is pretty irrelevant, IMO. The film is meant to portray Alexander as he was, so it should show that. Considering the number of films made about him that have completely ignored this aspect of his life and made him a raging heterosexual lovebeast, I don't see why two films showing something closer to reality is a problem at all.

	12-08-2003 08:32									#105
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Boris:

bah i'm probably argueing a point that don't matter at all... i just dont think Alexander should be portrayed as a homosexual which i got a feeling is how these movies are going to portray him... he would be better shown as a bisexual man much like most greek men.

	12-08-2003 08:34									#106
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and don't portray him as some kind of great gay hero who stood alone as a gay king and conqueror in a world of heterosexual prejudice... yes i really fear that people will get that message from such a movie unless it is shown clearly that bisexuality was part of greek culture.

	12-08-2003 08:41									#107
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That wouldn't seem to be accurate, however, since Hephaestion was the only person he seemed to have truly loved. The traditional "bisexuality" of Greek men wasn't at all like what Alexander had with Hephaestion. It was a married man taking on a younger man as a lover, until that young man himself got married and had children. It was more of a mentor/companionship thing with the physical thrown in.

Alexander and Hephaestion were childhood friends, equal in age, and comrades in arms. Alexander pointedly refused to marry when his father ordered it, wanting to be with Hephaestion. They were more like lifelong partners, and when Hephaestion died Alexander was inconsolable. Alexander's marriage to a daughter of Darius was purely political, to strengthen his claim of rule over his conquered empire.

	12-08-2003 08:42									#108
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Boris:

and how is that different from the Spartans? they had life-long male partners as well...

	12-08-2003 08:43									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer and don't portray him as some kind of great gay hero who stood alone as a gay king and conqueror in a world of heterosexual prejudice... yes i really fear that people will get that message from such a movie unless it is shown clearly that bisexuality was part of greek culture.

It's funny how you are the first to make a bald-assed assumption, not even having seen either film, and are ranting about them maybe pushing some sort of agenda. Just who is it who seems to have an agenda here?

	12-08-2003 08:44									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Boris: and how is that different from the Spartans? they had life-long male partners as well...

Traditionally, most Greeks didn't form lifelong same-sex relationships. It was pretty unusual for Alexander to do so:

Robin Lane Fox: Alexander the Great:

"Hephaestion was the man Alexander loved, and for the rest of their lives their relationship remained as intimate as it is now irrecoverable: Alexander was only defeated once, the Cynic philosophers said long after his death, and that was by Hephaestion's thighs. (p. 56)"

"At the age of thirty Alexander was still Hephaestion's lover although most young Greeks would have grown out of the fashion by then and an older man would have given up or turned to a younger attraction. Their affair was a strong one; Hephaestion grew to lead Alexander's cavalry most ably and to become Vizier before dying a divine hero, worthy of posthumous worship. (p. 57)"

	12-08-2003 08:47									#111
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what i'm saying boris is that i FEAR that the movies will portray alexander as some kind of lone gay hero who... you know how hollywood is... had to overcome so much historically non-existant prejudice and (somehow worked into the plot) conquered the world for his gay lover... i hope the movies don't end up like that... even for the sake of homosexuality's standing in modern eyes, it's better for homosexuals if the movie shows the truth that homosexuality was seen as normal (and actually fostered) among greeks.

	12-08-2003 08:50									#112
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Boris:

the spartans had similiar stories though... the athenians may have grown out of bisexuality but the spartans didn't... and bisexuality was doubly encouraged among them than it was among lets say the athenians

	12-08-2003 08:54									#113
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So you don't want the film to depict his relationship accurately for fear it will instill the wrong idea in people that he was some sort of homosexual crusader...

Look, Alexander's relationship is not likely to be the real focus of the movie, so going out of their way to somehow downplay its significance to him, or to bring in some sort of artificial contrivance to show it as standard practice (Just how would the film do such a thing?) isn't particularly feasible, as far as I can see.

If they show how vital this relationship was for Alexander (it was the most important of his life) in an accurate way, it's going to have make him look just a wee bit gay. He didn't have Hephaestion as a guy on the side for kicks while he loved a wife--he loved Hephaestion first and foremost. That's decidedly NOT the norm of the ancient Greeks, despite their having a much more open attitude towards sexuality in general.

	12-08-2003 08:57									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Boris: the spartans had similiar stories though... the athenians may have grown out of bisexuality but the spartans didn't... and bisexuality was doubly encouraged among them than it was among lets say the athenians

That's as may be, but Spartans were a minority and an aberration among the Greek City-States in this regard. Regardless, Alexander wasn't Spartan, nor Athenian, he was Macedonian.

	12-08-2003 09:00									#115
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i dont know, boris... the spartans did consider the love between two male soldiers to be purer than the love a man had for a woman (i guess because they had more in common? and also because spartan society saw men as higher than women)... men had sex with women in sparta only to produce more warriors... i think Alexander and Haphaestion's relationship mirrored the spartan model.

	12-08-2003 09:02									#116
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and may i ask a quick question, boris... what is the deal with gay men and vin diesal? they keep mentioning it on will & grace and in here, it was mentioned... is vin diesal gay? what?

	12-08-2003 09:12									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer i dont know, boris... the spartans did consider the love between two male soldiers to be purer than the love a man had for a woman (i guess because they had more in common? and also because spartan society saw men as higher than women)... men had sex with women in sparta only to produce more warriors... i think Alexander and Haphaestion's relationship mirrored the spartan model.

This is an exaggeration of Spartan custom. You seem to be confusing the Sacred Band of Thebes with Spartans in general. Spartan custom was for a boy who had just reached puberty to be "given" to an older soldier, who would basically, again, be his mentor/lover. The boy had little free will in the matter. Once the boy got older, he would take a wife and leave the soldier behind, as he would get his own boy soon. This was decidedly not the model on which Alexander's relationship was built.

	12-08-2003 09:12									#118
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Actually, I think Livy mentioned the black Africans specifically, but not often enough to slake our curiosity nowadays (maybe we're all just racist). As for contact with sub-saharan Africa, I think it was limited, but more than you make it out to be. Thanks for the Numidian info.

The black Africans that Livy mentioned are most likely Nubians from southern Egypt or the people from the horn. While dark skinned they are not negroes, but a distinct race. It is still very easy to tell an Ethiopian from a Nigerian for instance.

	12-08-2003 09:14									#119
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I doubt Vin Diesel is gay. He dated my voice teacher's daughter for a while (not that that necessarily means anything). Without knowing the context, I'm guessing it's just him becoming an object of gay desire, since he's big and buff and such.

	12-08-2003 09:16									#120
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Nah, Wayne did Attila. It was not pretty.

Understatement of the year!

quote: Originally posted by GePap My guess is that the porducers of Hannibal wanted someone who looked, well, like a soldier, and DiCaprio does not have that. In terms of violence, I am sure it will be violent, and they will have explosions (somehow, all ancient combat now has explosions). Plus Vin is not a bad actor: he is maligned that way, but is is just fine (better than Arnold, that is for sure). I know a lot of teenage girls who flocked to XXX. DiCaprio's last tow big films, after the Beach fiasco, were a Scorcese film, not driven by teenagers, and a Speilberg film, ditto. His endless teenage girl days were back in '96-97.

Still, he (DiCapprio) has the look that teenage girls like, namely androgeny. Vin's delivery isn't all that much better than Arnolds, which is going to be difficult to get past until he can develop another more nuanced speech pattern. I like the guy, but so far in the same way that I liked Arnold in Conan.