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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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what else did yall want from gladiator? could you make a real quick summary of an alternative plot because i personally can't think of anything but the revenge plot.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
what else did yall want from gladiator? could you make a real quick summary of an alternative plot because i personally can't think of anything but the revenge plot. |
A revenge plot can be enough, but a film loses half of its power as soon as you can't relate to the villain. They made the villain so ridiculously evil that no one could relate to what his motivations were, or care. Ditto the hero. With such crimes perpetrated against him there are no surprises, no gray area, no nuance. He's going to kill the bad guy if it's the last thing he does.
A better film (like say Apocolypse Now) doesn't let us escape so mindlessly. We are shown the good parts of Colonel Kurtz before the end of the film, as well as the bad parts of Captain Willard. First they make us fear and loath Kurtz, and then they humanize him. By the end of the film he is on our side in wishing for and finally arranging his own demise.
Similarly, other films can have us start out liking the villain, only to have him change into something that we don't like at all. The same sort of thing can happen to the hero as well. In The Fisher King Jeff Bridges starts out as an enormous ass hole. His cynical callousness brings him very low. Against the entire momentum of his life he begins to slowly change into a better person. It's an interesting story, and ultimately more compelling and fulfilling than a revenge fantasy that can be summed up in one second.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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nah Mad Monk... they're still there... just they have their villages demolished and their cities (like Beirut and Sidon) bombed and shelled...
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Mad Monk
You mean because of how YOUR PEOPLE drove them out of their homeland?  |
Oh no. We actually always had great relations with the maritime canaanites! They were to the north, and we bought some great timber from them. 
Historically, though, Findings show that there was no major difference in the language, art, and behavior in that area. Monotheism probably emerged from a cult of the deity of Jerusalem, and one of the main gods of the canaanite mythology, 'El' ( which is still the world for god in hebrew. AFAIK, Allah had the same place in the arab mythology. ).
When you're reading the first parts of the old testament, it's fascinating, really. You read about Abraham meeting the high-priest of El in Jerusalem, that congratulates him over his military victory. At this point, YAHWEH HAS ALREADY REVEALED HIMSELF TO ABRAHAM! amazing, simply amazing.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
Boris:
why not Schwarzenegger? or Stallone? or Segel? all back in the 70's and 80's? or were gay men all crazy about them back then too  |
None of these men are particularly attractive, IMO. Especially Steven Segal...yech.
quote:
as for spartans... no i'm pretty sure most spartans kept their male lovers well into adulthood and into death... i used to play age of empires and it got me all into that stuff and i remember reading about how spartans had life-long male lovers. if you want me to search on the internet for it, i can try |
You can search, but I promise you that your view is not correct. Spartans did NOT encourage lifetime male-male relationships:
http://xenohistorian.faithweb.com/worldhis/Hist11m.html
"Male homosexuality is a common subject in Greek art and literature. The most common form was "boy love," a homosexual relationship between a mature man and a boy who was about twelve years old. The man became the boy's role-model and counselor, and might even choose a wife for him when he grew up. They viewed this relationship as a rite of initiation into adult society, and like other initiation rites, it contained a strong element of humiliation. Sparta strongly encouraged this pedophilia; other Greeks indulged to a lesser extent, because Greek men thought women were not intelligent enough to carry on a stimulating conversation. Homosexuality between adult males, however, was only acceptable in the Theban army, where they reasoned that lovers would fight to the death to defend each other; elsewhere it was often outlawed, because it was 'contrary to nature.'"
Now, that's a Biblically-slanted view of history, according to the website, but nonetheless it is in line with what I've read on the subject. Adult male-male relationships were not that common, certainly not the "norm" like you present. The most common, by far, was as described above. Alexander's relationship went far beyond the typical Greek male-male bonding. Again, I don't think it will be the focus of the movie, but they should certainly show it as it was, not in any sanitized or apologetic way.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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GOD DAMN AZAZEL! stop acting like the Phoenicians and the hebrews are somehow brothers! fine, then your country is slaughtering your phoenician brothers every time you shell Beirut and Sidon! just ****ing admit it!
boris... i think "typical greek" is where our little debate is based on... athenians, atticans, corinthians, ionians, etc. generally didn't have male-male relationships into both parties' adulthood. there was a greater tendency for such relationships among brotherhood of warriors like the Spartans or like that band of thebans. there, homosexual/bisexual lovers were relatively common. agreed?
as for the movie... you dont think it will be the focus of the movie? again, i hope not but i got a feeling it will be at least after people see it... maybe it'll be like Commodus in Gladiator and his incense... people left the theaters half confused and figured maybe roman emperors always in-breeded? fortunately, that was just small side point in the movie and i'm sure some (dumber) people never even realized what Commodus was trying to do to his sister.
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Bereta_Eder
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There were periods of time when the laws even in one specific city state would change. For example in Sparta for a period of time if the state discovered gay leanings by anyone they would promptly execute them.
In Athens as described clearly in Plato's Symposium about the essence of best love the general population of that city state frowned heavily upon such tendencies which were mainly to be found in the aristocratic cyrcles, but were tolerated. BTW Plato supported that such frowning should not take place and only did because the "lower classes" were just that.
Then you have city states such as Thebes IIRC where they even had military pacts made, or so the legend goes, that if in war, soldiers should avoid killing someone by striking him on the face so as to preserve his beauty intact even in death for his male lover to behold after the end of the war.
About ancient Greeks thinking that women did not have the male intellect in order to make interesting conversation, this is true.
But you have to remember the pathetic situation to which most women were condemned in most of ancient Greece.
The exception to this rule were the "Heteres" thoroughly educated women who offered companionship for money and were generally regarded as excellent partners in conversation and other things.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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what the hell are you talking about, Azazel? you think the Phoenician people just vanished and the Lebanese are somehow a foreign invader?! their language changed after the arab conquests but they are still the descendents of the Phoenicians!
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:30
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or is this some kind of denial thing and you can't stand the thought that your country bombs and shells the great Phoenician cities of Beirut, Sidon, etc. and is killing the sons of a people that helped the jews so much?
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st_swithin
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10069
Nov 2002
time: 05:30
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In ancient Greek culture, there was a class of prostitutes known as the 'hetairai,' valued for their minds as well as their bodies. They were expected to be able to maintain an intelligent conversation, as well as look like, well, prostitutes.
Sort of like today's worshippers of Ishtar - the modern-day stripper. But ONLY if she's in college - some of those career women can talk your head off about absolutely nothing.
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Boris Godunov
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Portland, OR
Aug 2001
time: 00:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
boris... i think "typical greek" is where our little debate is based on... athenians, atticans, corinthians, ionians, etc. generally didn't have male-male relationships into both parties' adulthood. there was a greater tendency for such relationships among brotherhood of warriors like the Spartans or like that band of thebans. there, homosexual/bisexual lovers were relatively common. agreed? |
No, I disagree, because I haven't seen any evidence of Sparta having what you described. The adult male relationships that you're thinking about seem to me to be confined to the Thebans. The man-boy thing was much more common, but was not really a "homosexual relationship" in the modern sense. Alexander's relationship was much more akin to the modern homosexual meaning, and that wasn't a "norm" in ancient Greece, since they were of the same age and remained lovers for so long, each primarily favoring the other over anyone else.
quote:
as for the movie... you dont think it will be the focus of the movie? again, i hope not but i got a feeling it will be at least after people see it... maybe it'll be like Commodus in Gladiator and his incense... people left the theaters half confused and figured maybe roman emperors always in-breeded? fortunately, that was just small side point in the movie and i'm sure some (dumber) people never even realized what Commodus was trying to do to his sister. |
First, I have no idea where you get the idea that the focus of Gladiator became Commodus's incestual innuendo. Maybe to you it did, but most people certainly realized it and didn't focus on it. I was too busy being underwhelmed by the inane plot to care about it much myself. The people who enjoyed the movie seemed to have focused on the action sequences. If anyone zeroed in on the minor incest subplot and found it to be the biggest thing of the movie, I think that says more about those people than the movie.
Second, if people did come away thinking that Roman Emperors were somehow immoral, debauched men with megalomaniacal tendencies, they would be generally correct, since a healthy proportion of Roman Emperors were immoral, debauched men with megalomaniacal tendencies. Just think of Caligula, Nero, Domitian, and Heliogabalus, to name a few.
Absolute power corrupts...
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molly bloom
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Lundenwic
Oct 2001
time: 15:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
as for the movie... you dont think it will be the focus of the movie? again, i hope not but i got a feeling it will be at least after people see it... |
Albert, you really need to read more ancient history.
I'd recommend for a start, the excellent biography of Alexander that Boris has quoted from, written by Robin Lane Fox.
Alexander's greatest love:
Hephaestion
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestion
Hephaestion (born ca. 356 BC - died Autumn 324 BC), son of Amyntor, a Macedonian aristocrat, is known in history for being Alexander the Great's closest friend, second in command, and lover. He was born at an unknown date, but sources refer to him as being of the same age as Alexander, or perhaps a little older. When the two men first met is not certain. However, it is possible that Hephaestion shared Alexander's education in the village of Mieza with Aristotle as teacher, like other noble boys. The philosopher is known to have dedicated a volume of letters to him, so they must have met.
Hephaestion accompanied Alexander's campaign in Asia from the very beginning, fighting in the Companions Cavalry Unit. Passing through the city of Troy, Alexander and Hephaestion honoured the sacred tombs of the hero Achilles and is close friend Patroclus, assuming in the view of the whole army, the nature of the relation they shared. After the Battle of Issus, Alexander and Hephaestion went to inspect the spoils of war, which included King Darius's baggage train, family and royal harem. One of the best-known episodes of Hephaestion's life takes place when they both met Stateira and Sysigambis, Darius's pregnant wife and mother. Looking at the two men, the queen mother paid her respects first to Hephaestion, who was the tallest and most impressive, by Persian standards, of the two. The king corrected her by saying "Don't worry, he too is Alexander".
Before the India invasion and the crossing of the Hindu Kush mountains, in modern Afghanistan, Alexander made Hephaestion a chiliarch and vizier, recognizing him as second in command. During the India campaign Hephaestion again assumed military responsibilities in the vanguard, bridging rivers and leading one Companion squadron in the Battle of Jhelum.
Back in Susa, capital of the Persian Empire, Alexander married Darius's daughter Stateira and gave her younger sister as a wife to Hephaestion, making him his brother-in-law.
In the autumn of 324 BC, Alexander's army was stationed in the city of Hamadan for the winter. Hephaestion fell sick during the games that were being held for the court and died a week later. Described symptoms are compatible with typhoid fever, but the possibility of poisoning was never ruled out. As Alexander's favourite and intimate friend, his political enemies must have abounded. Whatever the cause, Alexander is reported to have gone mad with grief, shaving his head, as well as the manes of the army horses, cancelling all the festivities, and, legend says, crucifying the attending doctor. He set out immediately for Babylon with the body, where he held fabulous funeral games in his memory. It was determined that Hephaestion should be worshiped as a divine hero. A huge funeral memorial was still being built in Hephaistion's honour, when Alexander himself died, a few months later.
References:
Plutarch, Life of Alexander. Oxford Classics
Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great. Penguin Publishers
The Sacred Band:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/sacredband.html
As for Alexander's relationship with Hephaestion being the main focus of any film, I can see that going down well in the malls and multiplexes of America.
'Hey what shall we go and see? How about this movie about the Greek f@g who marries an Iranian, gets drunk, gets malaria and dies in Iraq?'
Sounds like a moneyspinner to me.
What's next, you think?
Hadrian and Antinous: Betwen the Sheets!!!
Queen Christina- Finger Lickin' Good!
Edward II- Careful with that Poker!
Pasiphae, Pet Shop Queen! She got the bull by the horn!!!
Great Pharoah goes Kentucky- Meet my Sister, My Wife!
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12-08-2003 09:21
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