11-08-2003 11:06									#1
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Since a number of us are beating Toughest regularly I thought it might be interesting to start a thread in which we post some of our fastest or most interesting games.

I'm attaching a 26 minute win using my latest wonder strategy. If Egypt builds 6 points worth of the first 10 wonder points early and then you get Angkor Wat and Versailles (3+3) in Enlightenment then the best the AI can do is 4 points before Industrial when SOL and Kremlin become available and by that time the wonder clock ticks to victory!

Just for fun I decided not to build any barracks, stables, or siege factories but managed to pull out the win with a handful of spies and generals. Gotta love that Terra Cotta...

Attachment: drachenegtfstno army.zip
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	11-08-2003 14:22									#2
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Wonder victory? puhh. Thirst thing I did was to set victory to conquest. In my eyes a wonder victory is a draw (like escaping to AC in civ2 before you are nuked by the russians )

	11-08-2003 19:17									#3
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quote: Originally posted by HeymlicH Wonder victory? puhh. Thirst thing I did was to set victory to conquest. In my eyes a wonder victory is a draw (like escaping to AC in civ2 before you are nuked by the russians )

1. Wonder victory? puhh...

We'll have to disagree. First off, I didn't make the rules of the game...BHG did. So the point of the thread is to find out what is the "Quickest" way to win on toughest using the rules of the game and the Wonder Crunch strategy seems to yield the win in 25 to 28 minutes. So post a game and show me how to beat the AI quicker.

2. In my eyes a wonder victory is a draw...

A draw? In the game I posted I was leading the AI in most gather rates by a good deal and with my pop cap at 250 I could have built a huge army and pounded the poor confounded beast...but that victory would have been slower rather than quicker.

3. Thirst thing I did was to set victory to conquest...

So you like to be a General? I would argue that you have to be a better commander to beat the AI when its building armies and you're building wonders. Just because I chose not to build any barracks, stables, or siege factories didn't mean there were no battles! The AI came at me with unusually large armies since his battle losses were lower than usual and I had to deal with that without making any troops. Think about it...no barracks meant that I was facing large armies based on muskets, knights and Bombards with a handful of Terra Cotta slingers, a few partisans, a few generals and a few spies. Don't you think that would present some interesting challenges to your command?

	16-08-2003 12:18									#4
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18 minutes 12 seconds on toughest.

Last edited by Drachen on 16-08-2003 at 21:28

	17-08-2003 02:54									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen 18 minutes 12 seconds on toughest.

Okay, now that deserves a film posting.

	17-08-2003 04:45									#6
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I was beginning to think this was a tough crowd. I'm away from the computer where I played this game so I can't get the replay for a few days but it's a simple strategy and if you've got 20 minutes then you can duplicate it.

"Son of Wonder Crunch"

Egypt, 1v1, Aztecs, standard settings, small Great Lakes map. I started with 7 woodie, mountain, and marble. Got diamonds, and silver. City two was battle city between two lakes in lower center. Used Diamond defense with city top, tower left, fort right, Terra Cotta bottom with cross covering. Defended with tower upgrades, garrisoned Terra Cotta slingers, and a spy. Built no military. Expanded economy as normal into medieval. Built Colossus and Colosseum in Capital as able. Built city three and gathered enough resourses to start Porcelain and Tikal simultaneously in mid medieval around minute 10 or 11. AI countered with pyramids but couldn't build any others so 4 minutes to build and 4 minutes of wonder timer.

Cheers and I'm off to Fleetwood Mac for a battle break.

Last edited by Drachen on 17-08-2003 at 11:27

	17-08-2003 11:38									#7
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Interesting. I've had some capital wins under 12:00 against the toughest AI, but never considered wonder-ing that fast. I could probably win in around 7:00 if I went straight for the capital instead of capturing expansion cities first. But that's risky, and would never work vs. humans (worth playing against).

	17-08-2003 11:43									#8
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Okay, now that deserves a film posting.

	17-08-2003 11:45									#9
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Taking my own medicine: Here's an example film. (This is from the older version of RON)

Attachment: quick capital win vs toughest ai.zip
This has been downloaded 32 time(s).

	17-08-2003 11:46									#10
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Oops, ya beat me to it.

	17-08-2003 11:49									#11
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Thank you very kindly. I just downloaded and I can't wait to see this.

	17-08-2003 11:50									#12
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Let me know if you can view it or if it won't run due to version conflict.

	17-08-2003 12:15									#13
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I've never seen a rush quite so early...although I think I should mention that you might have attached the wrong game. It doesn't matter because the idea is clear. This is too cool. Thanks for the lesson.

Cheers

Last edited by Drachen on 17-08-2003 at 12:29

	17-08-2003 22:11									#14
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Yes, basically, you research military level 1, drop a barracks and start pumping heavy infantry (+ 1 light infantry maybe). Only get enough villagers to make your 5 farms and fill your woodcamp.

When you have at least 4 heavy infantry, you should be able to drop his town, even if he has attrition, garrisons, and/or has a temple. If you hit the capital, you might be able to win more quickly, but it's riskier. Expos will go down faster and be less defended.

Humans will generally defend better and use better micro (e.g., garrison and ungarrison archers, dance ranged troops, etc.) so it's tougher. ONE archer comp can wreck this rush, which is why you send a light infantry also.

Civs that are good for this have either: 1) farm bonuses (for more food) or 2) heavy infantry bonuses (for better/faster infantry).

The computer sometimes tries this, but it's so easy to fight it off. Which is why I don't think it's viable versus humans, and hence not a good strategy overall.

	18-08-2003 00:20									#15
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Yahoo...I just finished a ten minute win and my first Rush ever. This works like a charm O4B. I found it helpful to use my scout to find the AI capital barracks and I took those out while they were being built. Killed the Greek peon building it for failing to acknowledge the superiority of my benevolent rule.

I still think you should look over the game you posted as you didn't win it and thus it might not be the best reflection of your play.

In your stagnation post you make a strong argument for the primacy of defense and in the light of that I'd like to know if you think the Egyptian Wonder Crunch could be a viable strat for multi. There are several reasons for thinking it might work. They have powerful early stable units for raiding and anti-raiding response. They may give up some early advancement for wonders but wonders yield great benefit if you can survive and keep them which translates into resources and ability advantages when they're needed later. Then there is the crunch...if you can build the wonders early enough then your opponent can't counter with wonders of his own and is left with having to beat you in battle before the wonder timer clicks down. But if defense has primacy before Gunpowder then Egypt may well be able to survive the onslaught. I've never done any multi so I fully expect that there are strategic considerations I'm unaware of and I'd be interested to hear what you think.

	18-08-2003 00:53									#16
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Congrats.

As to a MP wonder crunch win. I don't think so, although Egypt's wonder advantage MIGHT work, but the problem with wonders is they are a dead giveaway. As soon as you got TWO, I know what you're doing and I'll go ALL OUT MILITARY on your least defended towns. Since your resources are going to wonders and ALL of mine is going to military, you probably won't have the resources to stop me - my army will just be too big. Even if you get all the wonders built, I probably still be able to drop a town or 2 before the timer expires.

	18-08-2003 01:15									#17
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Okay. Fine. I dunno why the recording was messed up. Here's a 6:02 conquest victory.

Attachment: 6 min victory over toughest.zip
This has been downloaded 22 time(s).

	18-08-2003 07:52									#18
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If that wasn't good enough, here's a 4:45 conquest.

I don't think I could get too much faster. Maybe using one less heavy infantry for 20 sec or so, but then killing the buildings takes longer and you take more damage...

Attachment: 4-45 victory over toughest.zip
This has been downloaded 38 time(s).

	18-08-2003 08:33									#19
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I just got it down to 8:53 but 4:45? Don't you know that steroids and jet fuel are bad for you?

	18-08-2003 09:24									#20
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Ah...you mean till capital captured. I have actually lost the capital after winning it a few times today so my time is based on the Capital timer retake running down. The Turks have a nice advantage in their 200% faster city assimilation because local barracks are a big hassle even after city capture. My weaker heavy infantry took longer and I didn't get the capital till 4:57.

I'm sorry I misunderstood your first game post but when I looked at the achievements section it said "no winners" unlike the initial victory screen which states you won. Hmmm...two different end game messages?

Looking at your game gave me an idea for surer AI victory. If we take our first couple of heavy infantry along the sides to the opposing capital we can probably meet our last two heavy units there at about the same time and get the ruins bonuses that lie more heavily along the edges. This might get us a market and resource or age advance and unit upgrade; or it might take too long.

O.K. Rushing 101 complete. Now...

	19-08-2003 01:10									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Ah...you mean till capital captured.

No, I mean till the GAME OVER screen. If you kill off all of the cities, you do not need to wait for the capital timer or assimilation timer. Hence, you get a CONQUEST victory. So, that is VICTORY at 4:45, not just taking the town.

quote: ...local barracks are a big hassle even after city capture.

Take the expansion cities beofre he can make troops.

quote: I'm sorry I misunderstood your first game post but when I looked at the achievements section it said "no winners" unlike the initial victory screen which states you won. Hmmm...two different end game messages?

I dunno what happened to that recording. My bad.

quote: O.K. Rushing 101 complete. Now...

One caution. The comp is horrible at defending a rush. This can win SOME multiplayer games (or a LOT if you play poor players) but it's extremely risky. Mayans are almost immune, or if your opponents get a temple up, you'll be hard pressed to take the town. Also, a tower and militia or a barracks and 1-2 archers are gonna ruin this.

	19-08-2003 02:58									#22
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I agree that a rush like this is a valid strat against the AI but probably a poor bet in multi and if I ever do multi I probably won't try it unless I'm trying to wrangle in a noob; like I'll be if I start.

As to your posted game and comments. I completely agree that a conquest victory will bring up the Game Over screen. Also, I see your point that taking over the expansion cities on the way to the Capital may get you the conquest and a faster win than 8:53. But...I also see an enemy city, Kalinpor, left when I examine the map of your posted game and the achievement screen states there were no winners. Perhaps I'm missing something? It really doesn't matter because if you say you won in 4:45 then I'll take your word for it.

	19-08-2003 04:16									#23
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quote: But...I also see an enemy city, Kalinpor, left when I examine the map of your posted game and the achievement screen states there were no winners. Perhaps I'm missing something? It really doesn't matter because if you say you won in 4:45 then I'll take your word for it.

Hmmm, not sure what's going on. Are you watching the RIGHT game? (There are three of them now.) I d/l the 4:45 and it played perfectly fine for me. The 4:45 game is me against Turks. He builds two towns and I get them both. If you STILL have problems, there might be some sort of version conflict going on with versions of the game. Rec game is just the commands, the game engine handles the re-visualization.

	19-08-2003 04:20									#24
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Since these were so easy, thought I'd go for a real challenge. Here's another game - handling TWO TEAMED AIs. (None of that sissy FFA stuff.)

Kinda makes me wonder what is possible, because the capital sack bonus more than makes up lack of economy. It's possible you could take over MORE than two like this. Not to mention that with more AIs, they are going to be even closer to you, so you can finish them more quickly.

Attachment: 10-43 win vs 2 toughest ai team.zip
This has been downloaded 17 time(s).

	19-08-2003 05:00									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Out4Blood Hmmm, not sure what's going on. Are you watching the RIGHT game? (There are three of them now.) I d/l the 4:45 and it played perfectly fine for me. The 4:45 game is me against Turks. He builds two towns and I get them both. If you STILL have problems, there might be some sort of version conflict going on with versions of the game. Rec game is just the commands, the game engine handles the re-visualization.

Well now I am confused. I also downloaded the file again and it's named "4-45 victory over toughest." Kyoto is in the lower right quadrant. Your barracks gets built over the woods to the left. You take Keyseri on the way to Istanbul and after you take Istanbul the game ends. What I see on that screen is a town to the right of Istanbul named Karapinar and When I open the achievments screen it states no winners.

I just landed a 4:59 using Romans v Greeks on an outback map and now I'll download your 2 on 1 game and take a look.

	19-08-2003 06:26									#26
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Well, that's weird. It's definitely RIGHT game and all. Must be a version conflict then. Like I said, a rec game is just the series of events and commands that were issued, so in a different version, different things might happen. If it's not too much trouble, you might try viewing in the original version. Can't MP on this machine, so I never upgraded it.

	19-08-2003 06:45									#27
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Very nice work. An interesting decision to run your scout down ruins lane rather than go for quicker assurance of enemy location.

I've been messing about with wonder Crunch and I suspect you may be right about it and multi. When spending the resources to build a proper defense I wasn't able to get the wonders started soon enough. On the other hand, my game play was terrible today and I suspect that I can improve. What sort of defense would you try to use; just wondering.

	19-08-2003 06:52									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen Very nice work.

Thanks

quote: What sort of defense would you try to use; just wondering.

For wonder crunch, you might try towers/forts with max attrition and max militia upgrades. Toss in a few spies to mass convert cav or siege. Don't be afraid to call-to-arms and attack with villagers.

	19-08-2003 07:55									#29
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QUOTE] Originally posted by Out4Blood

Thanks


For wonder crunch, you might try towers/forts with max attrition and max militia upgrades. Toss in a few spies to mass convert cav or siege. Don't be afraid to call-to-arms and attack with villagers. [/QUOTE]

That’s what I do for AI but for multi I would expect that my opponent would bypass the static defenses. For instance, I find the diamond defense described earlier absolutely dominates the AI, but that's because the AI will attack whatever is in front, i.e., the city and when the city is reduced it charges with its army which is then trashed by my troops garrisoned in the tower and fort to the left and right. I really don't care much if the city is reduced because I always get it back and I fully expect the city to take a beating; taking the enemy blows without being destroyed is one of its major functions. A human commander wouldn't make such an obvious blunder and would either bypass to get to the economy or find a way to reduce the static defenses before going in with his troops. I would use some spies but with Egypt that's a disruption rather than a major counter because they are too expensive to mass since I'm building wonders and too vulnerable after they bribe. I would of course use the strat you suggest but I would think that it would have to be augmented significantly by a quick response force and some sort of warning system.

In regards to our game post discrepancy I find that if I select solo quick battle the version displayed lower left is 01.14.06.0500 which I believe is the latest version. It may be that there are other reasons for patching other than MP?

PS; I tried to attach a "print screen" bitmap of the final game scene but it was too large even as a zipped file. I can email it if you're interested or if you know a way to reduce it's size and want to see it then let me know.

	19-08-2003 19:10									#30
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4:12 Japan v Greeks outback.