13-08-2003 02:40									#1
	Turn 134, 110 AD Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Opening...

	13-08-2003 02:41									#2
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RP offers WM, 3g and Barcelona.
We're rejecting because we can defend Barcelona fine from B-4, right?

	13-08-2003 02:55									#3
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Hang on that. The theory goes that if we stick pikes in there, then GoW will avoid the fight, as usual.

I think we should accept it and stick 4 pikes in.

	13-08-2003 03:00									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Then our attacking knights will remain on B-4, most likely wounded and though on hills, unable to defend themselves.
Hold on, that's actually not such a bad idea. If we bait GoW to counter-attack our wounded knights we can hold more riders in the area as slowmover targets. Interesting.

	13-08-2003 03:05									#5
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Nah, bad idea. They can escape and/or cut roads.

	13-08-2003 04:08									#6
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I strongly support defending from B4- much better odds should GoW decided to attack, comfortable spot to attack with our Knights from. I hardly GoW WILL not attack us if we're there, and if they will- they'll pay dearly for it. I just don't see any advantage we could get from accepting the town and garrisoning it at this turn- maybe next turn, but not this one.
We're trying to destroy GoW stack while defending RP's important towns- by sitting on B4 and attacking with everything we have, we're doing both while letting RP enjoy another turn of income and harbor access.

	13-08-2003 05:19									#7
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B4 looks the best option to me too (not sure if I would even use the knights to attack this turn).
We can get some pikes, MI and knights on that hill and see were GoW will head too. ( and what they will do when a larger army presents itself)

	13-08-2003 05:22									#8
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Does RP have ANY units in the south? ( Merida, Valencia,murcia)
They can take these 3 cities next turn.

	13-08-2003 06:12									#9
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re Barcelona

If GoW stay on course they will not attack anything showing a pike. We could accept Barcelona and send a pike there. One of the passing knights can Fortify All so that the pike shows as fortified.

Then we can move 3 pike and 3 mi to B4. We can get 5 knights there for shots at riders in the open. If things go against us, we have 3 pikes to defend the knights. If they get lucky and punch through, they will still face a pike in Barcelona. They will not touch it.

Also, the road to Pamplona is cut by GoW. That means that without us having that port, we are cut off from the silk.

I think we want Barcelona in our hands.

	13-08-2003 06:35									#10
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RP coordination, important bits

RP has 2 workers at NM 4 4. We need a couple of pike on NM 4 7 7 to keep the riders off them. 2 pike from NM would do.

We should gift back Toledo and NM this turn. They will do better generating taxes for RP. We can leave 1 or 2 pikes by each to cover if the bad guys come back.

It is up to us to cover P 9. It is 50-50 for each of their riders vs forted knights. 3 knights secures the road, and they will move off, most likely. We can push the 2 pikes from P 6 6 to take over covering the critical mountain road.

	13-08-2003 06:36									#11
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We can defend Barcelona perfectly well on our own from B-4. In fact, I'd like GoW to try to break through B4 - their wounded riders will have to deal with 4 pikes on hills (these battles will most likely provide us with some fabulous losses-in-shields ratios) and then the knights (wounded, but still good). If you ask me, chances are that they'll never get to the medinfs, providing that our knights will kill some riders this turn.
So sure, if GoW sees that Barcelona is in RP's hands and ungarrisoned, they might go for it - but even if they succeed in breaking through B4, their fabulous stack will be reduced to nearly nothing in the process, and we'll be able to finish the job the following turn.

In short, I wouldn't want to take Barcelona and put a pike in it just to scare off GoW - in fact, I want them to attack. Sure beats losing the entire south of RP if they go running about.

	13-08-2003 06:45									#12
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We lose a luxury. How much do you like the slider? How dangerous is it if GoW can't win?

	13-08-2003 06:48									#13
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Besides, if GoW stay in character, they are not going to touch 3 pikes, 3 mi, and some knights on a hill. They would be less likely to attack if there were 4 pikes there.

If they do, then we have 5 more knights and some pikes coming up.

	13-08-2003 09:50									#14
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Having less defenders on B4 (even one pike) encourages GoW to attack that tile, and if they attack B4- I'm sure as hell they'll attack B as well- Pikes on flats, defending a relatively important town. Our best chances of defending the town, while inflicting maximum loses to GoW's stack is from B4, whether or not we claim the city. Now- luxs is a factor- do we need that lux? and if we do, how much does this cost for us?

	13-08-2003 10:49									#15
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zeit, they have never attacked our units to date. If you want, put all 4 pikes on the hill. They still will not attack them, if they stay on course.

However, we do indeed lose the lux if we do not accept Barca. We can have 3 more pikes there next turn. Why should we pay anything we do not have to?

Is there a sudden problem with accepting RP cities to defend?

	13-08-2003 14:24									#16
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Not at all- I wasn't aware of the lux problem, now that you mention it- if it is in fact a problem (forcing us to use the slider), we should accept it, of course, but still stage our defense at B4...

I too share your view that they will not attack... especially not with us on the hill with pikes and knights.
They'll head south- and that will set the new RP borders- P to the west, NM to the east, T to the north and B to the SE- as for the other towns- I don't think we could hold them for much longer.

	13-08-2003 14:54									#17
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Looking at the save, we are holding fine without silks, and we can hold up until RP reconnects the road, even if they lose ivory as well.

	13-08-2003 17:13									#18
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nye, I don't understand. We can assume that GoW is going to cut the roads South after they passed, so that we can't attack the 3 cities they take immediately, and they have time to heal their riders we might damage this turn. In that case, we will lose spices and ivory... the only thing we will keep is silk. It doesn't matter whether RP or we hold the city; as long as we(GS+RP) keep it from gfalling in GoW's hand. And, after attacking of our knights, GoW will not attack 4 pikes+3MI+leftover knights. Whether Barcelona is defended with a pike or not doesn't make a difference. Plus, in case we even feel threatened, our slowmover reinforcements to the area would be position right next to it, so that even with all the luck in the world we can still take the city back immediately, if neccesary.

I see no reason to accept the city (as the silk makes no difference if any of us keeps the city), while there are a number of advantages to let RP keep it.
- They will get 15 gpt from it. (we get what, 3?)
- they keep a good production center
- they won't lose the already accumulated shields, and build another pike? next turn
- Lego won't like it if we gain another city
- GoW will be baited to the city, without a real possibility to take it.
- and finally, it will ensure RP's existence if the RNG gods don't favor them. In theory, they can be destroyed next turn: all their southern cities are prone to attacks from GoW or ND (most will fall). If ND gets some major force conquering Pamplona, the only city where they can still live on is Barcelona. Toledo and NM will only be in their possession next turn, they will have to get to that turn to receive them.

DeepO

	13-08-2003 18:25									#19
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I say take the city and defend it.

GoW appears gunshy, and if they decide to change that all of a sudden, we can finally get those Riders engaged!

-Arrian

	13-08-2003 18:26									#20
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All:

Please see the thread regarding Lego & our tech deal, there is a proposed diplomatic PM in there (written by moi) I want people to read and comment upon. So far only a few have discussed even the intent behind the message.

Thanks,

-Arrian

	13-08-2003 18:34									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Arrian- we could engage the riders this turn with 5 knights, and the next turn, if they move towards B, with the Med. Infs as well- accepting the city this turn doesn't help at all- not with encouraging GoW to attack, and not with objective odds of success (Our units on the hills have better odds anyway). I still can't see any good reason to take it: It won't encourage GoW to attack, and if it will they'll attack having better odds, OTOH, it will mean one less pike to defend our knights from counter-attack (and it was decided against moving one knight to block P99 mountain when we the risk to an attack on P69 was low...).
Just look at the list DeepO made to see how accepting the city hurts the war effort.

	13-08-2003 18:52									#22
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Hmm...

Ok, then why is RP gifting it? I assume they felt they couldn't defend it.

But DeepO's reasoning does make some sense...

Damn, it's hard to get a feel for this war, what with the coordination between two teams. During the war of Voxian aggression, things were more straightforward.

-Arrian

	13-08-2003 19:04									#23
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RP must have thought that we'd want to defend from Barcelona, but they were unaware that we can do much better without it if we defend from B4.

	13-08-2003 21:04									#24
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Gifting us a city is the best thing RP could do- they didn't have time to go through all our option, and they shouldn't trouble themselves with our plans unless its necessary- by gifting a city which is in risk and we can defend they save themselves trouble since they know we're the ones handling the defense anyway...

As for the feel of the war: We get a chance to have a better picture of it- because we hear from RP and in the chats we have we share our feeling about how the war progresses, but I agree that this war is not simple as the Voxian one: Vox had a distinct border which they crossed with large slow forces, and the front moved on one major axis- between the Voxian core and ours. In this one, the front keeps changing location, and not on one axis- add to that the 2v2 factor, and you do get a more difficult conflict to follow.

	13-08-2003 21:10									#25
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We have to play the turn now. There's little time left.
Can I reject Barcelona?
Can I attack GoW's stack of riders on flats with our knights?

	13-08-2003 22:16									#26
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Go ahead with the attack- I also think we have a widespread agreement regarding barcelona.

	13-08-2003 22:26									#27
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DeepO, Barca will be disconnected with Pamplona, their capital. They will therefore be unable to trade us the silk, no?

So, we will lose the silk, as well as the other luxes that they no longer have a connected port to trade to us.

What matter does it make if Barca is in our hands or theirs if GoW cannot take it? The difference is we keep the silk.

	13-08-2003 23:45									#28
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Go ahead and refuse it. If GoW can't take it and IF we do not need the lux, then it will net more taxes for RP. There is also a unit about to complete there I believe.

	13-08-2003 23:55									#29
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We are already silk-less, and we're doing fine in all our large cities. We can afford to wait a few turns until RP reconnects the road to Pamplona (given that it'll still be there by the time that the road is reconnected).
I'm going to refuse the city.

	13-08-2003 23:55									#30
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Sounds good.

Shall we hit the Rider stack? Will our knights that win will be exposed to counterattack?

-Arrian